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The Horus Heresy: Burning of Prospero» Forums » General

Subject: What's the mini build structure? rss

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Mike Martin
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Upfront, I kinda dislike the combination of multiple build options, no set builds for the minis and WYSIWYG. I dabbled in 40K before (didn't use magnets) only to find out that I equipped my models with apparently the worst combination of weapons. I'd like to not mess up this box set.

So, is there any advice on how to build the minis? Any weapons choices to be sure to include, or exclude?

For the Space Wolves Tactical Squad, for example, Melta Gun or Plasma Gun?
For the Veteran Sergeants: bolt pistol or plasma pistol? Lightning claw, power fist, power sword, etc?

Thanks!
 
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Mark
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For Legion Veteran Tactical squads of both flavors, you get a lot of options on the sprues (great for 40K!) but not a lot of choices for the models in the game. Which keeps it simple. More simple than Calth.

Remember, everybody gets a chainsword. And, all that does is give everybody a D6 in close combat (unless they use a different dedicated close combat weapon). Also, in the game, two close combat weapons confers no advantage (unlike 40K). I wouldn't bother to model chainswords, unless you like the way it looks.
GW didn't bother.



Seven of your Marines get boltguns. Period.

One other Marine can get a Heavy Bolter. Take it!

Another gets either a Meltagun or Plasma gun. The first hits harder, with shorter range. I haven't seen range be a big factor in the game. I like the Meltagun. But either is good, and you should take one or the other.

The Sargent can stick with a boltgun, or upgrade to a pistol and close combat weapon. Why not, he gives up a range for much better close combat. Somebody else will have to say why one would take the bolt pistol The Plasma pistol is better (D8 vs D6), but does not have "Support Fire" (re-roll ones). But, the higher values on the D8 gives a better chance at Critical Hits (double damage). Plasma Pistol wins here. The four close combat weapon options all roll the same die, and have no special rules. Just choose one. Aesthetics wins here. That goes for taking a second chainsword, it has no advantage. But, a 40K player might want his sergeant to have one for that game, too

Finally, anyone can get the Vexilla. For this squad, it gives a close combat bonus (re-roll one attack). There's no reason to not take one, unless you don't like the way it looks. There is probably no reason to not give it to your close combat specialist Sergeant. Yes, it works for everyone, bu he is hopefully going to stick around longer. Or, maybe you will keep the bearer in the back. Up to you.

So, to recap, my best guess sqaud would be:
Sargent-Plasma Pistol + Close Combat weapon (NOT a second chainsword), and Vexilla.
1 Heavy Bolter
1 Meltagun
7 Boltguns
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Kevin Outlaw
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Not sure why you are saying GW didn't bother to model chainswords - every model in that picture has a chainsword slung on its back!

There's no reason not to take a second chainsword - it boosts your sergeant's close combat to a D8, the same as any other close combat weapon does.

Also, I wouldn't put the vexilla on him, mainly because it's against the rules Vexillas are only an option for regular marines, not sergeants.

Meltagun is a better option than the plasma gun because with a range of three you can still target a lot of stuff.

The way the rules work, it always seems better to take a gun that gives you a bigger dice. A roll of 6 or higher is always a critical hit, so if you roll a D8, you have 3/8 chances to crit rather than 1/6 on a regular D6. Furthermore, a lot of the time your opponent is only going to be rolling a D6 in defence, so if you can roll 7s or 8s, you are scoring two unblockable damage.
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Major Havok
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Grim6 wrote:
Upfront, I kinda dislike the combination of multiple build options, no set builds for the minis and WYSIWYG. I dabbled in 40K before (didn't use magnets) only to find out that I equipped my models with apparently the worst combination of weapons. I'd like to not mess up this box set.


In my local 30k and 40k groups, we don't support anyone arguing for WYSIWYG when it comes to options on a model. Are there folks trying to make a WYSIWYG argument for BaC or BoP?

That seems so pointless and argumentative. I magnetized my BaC, but haven't even started assembling BoP yet. I did that magnetization for myself and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it.

So I'm curious if you want WYSIWYG or someone you play with is demanding WYSIWYG?
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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matthewabair wrote:
Grim6 wrote:
Upfront, I kinda dislike the combination of multiple build options, no set builds for the minis and WYSIWYG. I dabbled in 40K before (didn't use magnets) only to find out that I equipped my models with apparently the worst combination of weapons. I'd like to not mess up this box set.


In my local 30k and 40k groups, we don't support anyone arguing for WYSIWYG when it comes to options on a model. Are there folks trying to make a WYSIWYG argument for BaC or BoP?

That seems so pointless and argumentative. I magnetized my BaC, but haven't even started assembling BoP yet. I did that magnetization for myself and I wouldn't expect anyone else to do it.

So I'm curious if you want WYSIWYG or someone you play with is demanding WYSIWYG?


I would never force an opponent to use WYSIWYG, but I do prefer it, as it removes the possibility of error or disagreements. For Calth, WYSIWYG is almost essential, because there are so many options, and things can get very confusing (especially if you don't paint them models).

By the way - Prospero's rulebook specifically uses WYSIWYG. The attack action says to compare the weapons the model is carrying to the weapon charts. I wouldn't force anyone to adhere to that though, as long as they had made it clear at the start of the game.
 
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Major Havok
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I guess I'm used to not relying on WYSIWYG in larger 40k games so the idea of doing that for BaC seems almost trivial I'm not surprised the rule book details that as there is no better/clearer way to state such a thing. So neither of us would force someone to use WYSIWYG. I couldn't play with someone who would require WYSIWYG, that is a level of RAW I don't have time for
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Kevin Outlaw
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matthewabair wrote:
I guess I'm used to not relying on WYSIWYG in larger 40k games so the idea of doing that for BaC seems almost trivial I'm not surprised the rule book details that as there is no better/clearer way to state such a thing. So neither of us would force someone to use WYSIWYG. I couldn't play with someone who would require WYSIWYG, that is a level of RAW I don't have time for


For me, it seems harder to keep track of in a game like Calth because each model is more of a "character", and you have the ability to break apart and reform the units. You can very quickly jumble up the formations, and it can get quite easy to lose track of which character was supposed to have what weapons. This is quite unlike my old games of Fantasy Battle, where we regularly went "this unit has this, and this one has this..." and it was pretty easy to stay on top of.

But yeah, forcing WYSIWYG is prime toolery. My only requirement is my opponent clearly identifies any unit that is not equipped as it appears to be. If I forget later on, that's on me

Prospero is actually much easier to assemble than Calth, as so many weapons are the same. A terminator with one fist, or one chainfist, or one sword gets exactly the same attacking options. It means you get the chance to make models you like the look of, without worrying too much about what they can do.

The only really important decision points that matter a lot are with the sisters of silence (you could almost do with three units of them, as each model has three weapon options... although, why you would want them to have bolters is beyond me), the termies (double close combat attacks or the option to shoot as well?), and the custodes (swords or spears?).

The biggest upset for me was the discovery that custodes with swords and shields seem like a much better option than custodes with spears, yet the spears look so much cooler!
 
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Mark
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Not sure why you are saying GW didn't bother to model chainswords - every model in that picture has a chainsword slung on its back!

There's no reason not to take a second chainsword - it boosts your sergeant's close combat to a D8, the same as any other close combat weapon does.

Also, I wouldn't put the vexilla on him, mainly because it's against the rules Vexillas are only an option for regular marines, not sergeants.

Meltagun is a better option than the plasma gun because with a range of three you can still target a lot of stuff.

The way the rules work, it always seems better to take a gun that gives you a bigger dice. A roll of 6 or higher is always a critical hit, so if you roll a D8, you have 3/8 chances to crit rather than 1/6 on a regular D6. Furthermore, a lot of the time your opponent is only going to be rolling a D6 in defence, so if you can roll 7s or 8s, you are scoring two unblockable damage.


Holy Cow, they do have chainswords glued to their backs! Honestly, why bother? They look cool (I guess?). But, they all get one anyway. So, it's not required by WYSIWYG to give them a "basic" close combat attack, whether modeled with a sword, or not. Vets of 40K and other GW boardgames know these are the only Tactical Marines in any 40K games (including Calth) to have swords. Because, they are unnecessary, and in some games that give swords a special ability (40K's, Calth), they would be confusing. I only bring that up because gluing chainswords to their backs will NOT be WYSIWYG with Calth and 40K.

Yes, the second chainsword is also a close combat weapons boost for the Sergeant, like other close combat weapons. To WYSYWIG that would typically mean putting a chainsword in one hand, and a pistol in the other.

The Veteran Sergeant is also a Veteran. He has the same stats as all the rest of the squad. And is armed the same way. You could call any model in the squad the Sergeant. Including the one with the Vexilla. And, give him the Heavy or Special Weapon. The only functional difference, is the Sergeant can instead be armed with a pistol and with a close combat weapon. Any model could get the Vexilla, it doesn't replace anything.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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ZombieMark wrote:


The Veteran Sergeant is also a Veteran. He has the same stats as all the rest of the squad. And is armed the same way. You could call any model in the squad the Sergeant. Including the one with the Vexilla. And, give him the Heavy or Special Weapon. The only functional difference, is the Sergeant can instead be armed with a pistol and with a close combat weapon. Any model could get the Vexilla, it doesn't replace anything.


Look at the reference sheet with the weapon charts, or the page in the rulebook that defines the squad construction. Vexilla is not an option for the sergeant.

And to clarify the chainsword situation for the sergeant - you can ONLY take a second chainsword if you take a pistol. I only raised the point because you told the OP NOT to take the second chainsword, but the second chainsword is just as viable as taking a fist, claw, or sword.
 
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Mark
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OK, I have 10 Marines with chainswords and bolters. One has a Vexilla. I secretly call him the Sergeant. HaHa! You would never know.

I know I missed that the second chainsword counts as a different close combat weapons. And, must be accompanied by a pistol. That's the standard close combat Sergeant, except for the other chainsword glued to his back.

Maybe because this is the only 40K based game (including ALL versions of 40K) that uses a chainsword to portray the close combat attack of a Tactical marines. WSYWIG here won't be WSYWIG in any other game. Just say'n.
 
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ZombieMark wrote:
OK, I have 10 Marines with chainswords and bolters. One has a Vexilla. I secretly call him the Sergeant. HaHa! You would never know.




Nobody is going into battle with a vanilla squad with 10 bolters. There's just no benefit from doing so.

Squad composition is 9 veterans, and 1 veteran sergeant. NOT 10 veterans. The two different types of unit have different loadout options.

These models have chainswords because they represent 30K legion veterans, not 40K tac' marines. I don't play the 30K tabletop game, but as I understand it from the fluff, that's standard loadout so maybe that's reflected in the 30K tabletop rules too.
 
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Mark
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Tell that to Calth...
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ZombieMark wrote:
Tell that to Calth...


My Calth models are still unassembled at the moment, but I just peeked at the sprues and it looks like they have given them combat knives instead. That's interesting.

Maybe the chainswords were to move the board games more in line with the tabletop game (like I said, don't play so wouldn't know). Or maybe it was just to make sure there was no repeat of those annoying Calth debates about whether you could use a meltabomb if you didn't have an assault weapon
 
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Just in case anyone but us cares, let me confirm this is NOT an argument, and there is NO controversy. The Prospero Marines come with chainswords. That is unusual. But, NOT game changing as structured.

My first weak attempt at looking up Horus Heresy Legion Tactical Squads (I don't play that game, either) yielded this (possibly incorrect) information:

The Legion Tactical Squad consists of at least 10 marines with sergeant all armed with bolters, bolt pistols, frag and krak grenades. With the exception of the sergeant they do not get any special or heavy weapons upgrades though they can swap bolters for close combat weapons.

A pistol can be used in close combat. So, one attack. (BTW, I vaguely remember being surprised, that Calth Marines did not come with a Bolt Pistol). Oh, don't sweat the grenades ya'll. They serve a different purpose in 40K/30K. More like a squad enhancer than a particular weapon.

A standard chainsword is simply a close combat weapon that strikes with the strength of the user. With ONE chainsword and a bolt pistol, the Marine now gets two attacks at his normal strength, instead of one. Better weapons are available, but cost more points.

Anyway, who knew?

 
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ZombieMark wrote:
Just in case anyone but us cares, let me confirm this is NOT an argument, and there is NO controversy. The Prospero Marines come with chainswords. That is unusual. But, NOT game changing as structured.



I found something that says legion veterans in 30K come with combat knives or chainswords as standard. 1 in 5 get to upgrade to a "heavy chainsword." This would probably explain why the sergeant's "second chainsword" (as they call it in Prospero) is comically massive... A fact I didn't immediately realise when I used it to make a little conversion for a regular veteran
 
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There are number of 30K core rule books. Or, so I'm told. Good to know about the heavy sword.

All's I knows is in my day, 40K was good enough for us reg'ler fellers. We didn't have no high-falut'n 30K notions. Marines were OK with bolters. And plenty of them dam Xenos, to shoot'em with.
 
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
The biggest upset for me was the discovery that custodes with swords and shields seem like a much better option than custodes with spears, yet the spears look so much cooler!

Putting them together now. Gotta go with a Vexilla. The other choices are probably rote.

Sword and shield shoots better (albiet, shorter range). More importantly, it defends better. Spears fight better in close combat. And, do look better, and are iconic for Custodes. I don't see the advantage of giving the leader a sword and knife. As far as I can tell, he can't use them both in Combat. If he could, that would be a no brainer (4 x D8 each turn!).

I'll probably go with Vexila, 2 x (Swords and Shields), and 2 x spears. That way, I'm not maxing out, and I look like I have a plan. Like, shields up front, Spears behind for shooting and then closing to Combat.
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ZombieMark wrote:


I'll probably go with Vexila, 2 x (Swords and Shields), and 2 x spears. That way, I'm not maxing out, and I look like I have a plan. Like, shields up front, Spears behind for shooting and then closing to Combat.


Yeah. Vexilla is essential. Although it's a massive pain that 1/5 of your units doesn't get a shoot action in scenario 2, it's still worth it for the rerolls, and certainly beneficial in the later scenarios when you have better numbers to play with.

I mentioned in a different thread about the weird knife situation with the HQ - there is definitely nothing in the rules allowing him to double up his attacks by carrying a knife, so it's a combo to avoid. It almost feels like they omitted a rule from the character sheet, because you would think using the knife and sword together should upgrade your combat to D10 (like when you use two chainswords). That would make it a better consideration, as you would be getting D10 close up, and D8 at range, but losing your D10 defence.

As it happens, I modelled my unit the same way you have - HQ with sword and shield, Vexilla, sword and shield, and two spears. There was no way I wasn't going to use a couple of the spears. They look too good.
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
...
The only really important decision points that matter a lot are with the sisters of silence (you could almost do with three units of them, as each model has three weapon options...


So what is the consensus for the Sisters? I'm actually building them and they're big fun (I'll update my thread soon!) but I see that their 3 options are not "the same" in terms of visual quality.

For example:

- Sister #2 has the same cape as the Superior (something like fur coat); also, her sword is quite cool, with nails and spikes; so I've built her as a Vigilator, like the Superior.

- Speaking of Sister Superior, she has a too cool pose to not build her anything else than a Vigilator, so that's it.

Now, also Sister #3 looks like a good candidate for Vigilator, because her peculiar Vigilator pose (1-handed Executioner sword is, honestly, way cool)... but she may also be a good Witchseeker.

And Sister #1 and #4 may be good Witchseekers, too, because the Flamer looks like it's handy (I think?).

Honestly I see no point in Witchseekers (bolter) as Wolves probably have already a full Tactical Marines Squad for that.
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Mythologem wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
...
The only really important decision points that matter a lot are with the sisters of silence (you could almost do with three units of them, as each model has three weapon options...


So what is the consensus for the Sisters? I'm actually building them and they're big fun (I'll update my thread soon!) but I see that their 3 options are not "the same" in terms of visual quality.

For example:

- Sister #2 has the same cape as the Superior (something like fur coat); also, her sword is quite cool, with nails and spikes; so I've built her as a Vigilator, like the Superior.

- Speaking of Sister Superior, she has a too cool pose to not build her anything else than a Vigilator, so that's it.

Now, also Sister #3 looks like a good candidate for Vigilator, because her peculiar Vigilator pose (1-handed Executioner sword is, honestly, way cool)... but she may also be a good Witchseeker.

And Sister #1 and #4 may be good Witchseekers, too, because the Flamer looks like it's handy (I think?).

Honestly I see no point in Witchseekers (bolter) as Wolves probably have already a full Tactical Marines Squad for that.


My original thought was three sword, one flamer, one bolter, because I like to mix things up. But I very quickly changed my mind and went with three swords and two flamers.

Sisters of Silence are useful up close to the enemy, so swords are a really good option. Flamers are handy just because you get to hit a lot of dudes with each shot. I don't see why you would ever pick a bolter over those other options - just like there's very little point giving a tactical marine HQ a bolt pistol.
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