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jeremy cobert
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So what happened here ? Did people cross party lines to say that they wanted less regulation on private business or was it just the rolling tide of red that somehow swept into Oregon ?


Quote:
The Oregon public official responsible for shutting down a Christian-owned bakery that refused to cater a gay wedding lost in his bid to become Oregon secretary of state.

Brad Avakian has served as commissioner of the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries since 2008. In that role, he achieved national notoriety for investigating Sweet Cakes by Melissa, a bakery that refused to furnish a wedding cake for two lesbians on the grounds that doing so would violate the owners’ Christian beliefs. In 2015, Avakian levied a $135,000 fine on the store’s owners, Aaron and Melissa Klein, declaring that their refusal to produce the cake wasn’t protected by the First Amendment and instead was simply illegal discrimination. In October, the bakery shut down entirely.

It wasn’t the only time Avakian used heavy fines to push gay rights. He also fined a bar owner more than $400,000 for telling a group of cross-dressers and transgender people to stay away, because the owner didn’t want his bar to be characterized as a “tranny bar.”

While the Kleins’ business was going downhill, Avakian turned his sights to higher office. In last week’s general election, he ran for Oregon secretary of state. But in an upset, Dennis Richardson, a former state representative and gubernatorial candidate, trounced Avakian. Richardson will become the first Republican to win an Oregon statewide office in 14 years, and the first Republican secretary of state since 1985.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...


http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...
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Andrew Bartosh

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https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1672537/more-democrat-losse...
 
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J.D. Hall
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Despite perceptions, Oregon is mainly rural, small-town, conservative. Probably a combination of factors. I'd hate to think people want to get rid of the onerous government regulation that says you can't discriminate against a class of people if you operate a public business.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Anyhow, without seeing voting numbers, it's hard to actually do anything but speculate completely blindly.

The endorsement from Oregon Live linked in your own article makes a solid case for Richardson as the better man for the job. http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2016/10/dennis_r...
 
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jeremy cobert
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remorseless1 wrote:
Despite perceptions, Oregon is mainly rural, small-town, conservative. Probably a combination of factors. I'd hate to think people want to get rid of the onerous government regulation that says you can't discriminate against a class of people if you operate a public business.


But perhaps they voted to allow people the freedom to associate with whomever they chose. You see the regulation as a savior, while I see it as the government running your business.

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jeremycobert wrote:


But perhaps they voted to allow people the freedom to associate with whomever they chose. You see the regulation as a savior, while I see it as the government running your business.



He lost his bid for Secretary of State...He's still in the same job he was before, Commissioner of Bureau of Labor and Industries.
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R. Frazier
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jeremycobert wrote:
So what happened here ? Did people cross party lines to say that they wanted less regulation on private business or was it just the rolling tide of red that somehow swept into Oregon ?


Quote:
The Oregon public official responsible for shutting down a Christian-owned bakery that refused to cater a gay wedding lost in his bid to become Oregon secretary of state.

Brad Avakian has served as commissioner of the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries since 2008. In that role, he achieved national notoriety for investigating Sweet Cakes by Melissa, a bakery that refused to furnish a wedding cake for two lesbians on the grounds that doing so would violate the owners’ Christian beliefs. In 2015, Avakian levied a $135,000 fine on the store’s owners, Aaron and Melissa Klein, declaring that their refusal to produce the cake wasn’t protected by the First Amendment and instead was simply illegal discrimination. In October, the bakery shut down entirely.

It wasn’t the only time Avakian used heavy fines to push gay rights. He also fined a bar owner more than $400,000 for telling a group of cross-dressers and transgender people to stay away, because the owner didn’t want his bar to be characterized as a “tranny bar.”

While the Kleins’ business was going downhill, Avakian turned his sights to higher office. In last week’s general election, he ran for Oregon secretary of state. But in an upset, Dennis Richardson, a former state representative and gubernatorial candidate, trounced Avakian. Richardson will become the first Republican to win an Oregon statewide office in 14 years, and the first Republican secretary of state since 1985.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...


http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...


http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/10/post_18...

This appears to be a little more balanced article, basically it indicates that the difference between the candidates is that Avakian wanted to turn the position into a policy-setting position, which it really isn't, and the republican candidate presented himself as a "numbers guy" who would act to prevent fiscal corruption.

That said the result, the fact that he was endorsed by several newspapers and even democratic political figures and the fact that Richardson won was pretty clearly a repudiation of the idea that the public cares if their secretary of state is socially conservative of socially liberal - they want him to stick to his traditional role and focus on auditing the government.
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J.D. Hall
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jeremycobert wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Despite perceptions, Oregon is mainly rural, small-town, conservative. Probably a combination of factors. I'd hate to think people want to get rid of the onerous government regulation that says you can't discriminate against a class of people if you operate a public business.


But perhaps they voted to allow people the freedom to associate with whomever they chose. You see the regulation as a savior, while I see it as the government running your business.


So if Google wanted to stop providing services to conservatives, you'd be good with that? Or a Baptist mechanic refused to work on cars owned by Methodists? I see it as "if you're going to run a business, then take every paying customer you have and don't be a jackass." Different people see things differently, I guess. I've managed several small newspapers, my father owned a chain of used-book stores, and my oldest brothers runs his own ad company. We've all had to do business with people we absolutely detested, but we did it anyway. Not sure why you think it's a good thing to discriminate against paying customers because ... what, they're doomed to burn in hell because they're gay?
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Sam I am
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As long as they post clear signage to let customers know who they do and don't bake cakes for why should I care. let me guess they haven't posted one. I guess they don't want random doughnut and coffee buyers to know which businesses to "freely associate" with.
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Adam Alleman
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I still don't see why as a business owner, you would want to discriminate against anyone. Seems bad for business to take an opinion about your customers. Certainly you should be able to refuse service to anyone at anytime but really should only be for kicking out drunk and/or obnoxious people.
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Sam I am
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Daddys_Home wrote:
I still don't see why as a business owner, you would want to discriminate against anyone. Seems bad for business to take an opinion about your customers. Certainly you should be able to refuse service to anyone at anytime but really should only be for kicking out drunk and/or obnoxious people.

This entire thing has more to do with butt-hurt than the Bible. It's being pissed off about "Happy Holidays" on steroids.
 
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Jon Badolato
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Connecticut
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jeremycobert wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Despite perceptions, Oregon is mainly rural, small-town, conservative. Probably a combination of factors. I'd hate to think people want to get rid of the onerous government regulation that says you can't discriminate against a class of people if you operate a public business.


But perhaps they voted to allow people the freedom to associate with whomever they chose. You see the regulation as a savior, while I see it as the government running your business.



You'd likely feel differently if you were gay and had been refused a cake order by them.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Daddys_Home wrote:
I still don't see why as a business owner, you would want to discriminate against anyone. Seems bad for business to take an opinion about your customers. Certainly you should be able to refuse service to anyone at anytime but really should only be for kicking out drunk and/or obnoxious people.


Well, that's the primary issue. Functionally, I do agree with the core idea of freedom of association: you should be able to do interact with whoever you want. There is value to the idea of reserving the right to refuse service to anyone. If I hate you because you're an asshole, I ought to be able to kick you out of my store.

Of course, where this meets potentially problematic cross-purposes with broader discrimination (e.g. I won't serve blacks, gays, whatever). The generalized arguments are that discrimination will eventually die out for the reasons stated (not doing business is stupid, a competitor will scoop them up and win) while the counter argument is that this creates potential to shut out certain groups in communities.

Neither solution is foolproof and they each have their own issues.
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Junior McSpiffy
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rylfrazier wrote:
jeremycobert wrote:
So what happened here ? Did people cross party lines to say that they wanted less regulation on private business or was it just the rolling tide of red that somehow swept into Oregon ?


Quote:
The Oregon public official responsible for shutting down a Christian-owned bakery that refused to cater a gay wedding lost in his bid to become Oregon secretary of state.

Brad Avakian has served as commissioner of the Oregon Bureau of Labor and Industries since 2008. In that role, he achieved national notoriety for investigating Sweet Cakes by Melissa, a bakery that refused to furnish a wedding cake for two lesbians on the grounds that doing so would violate the owners’ Christian beliefs. In 2015, Avakian levied a $135,000 fine on the store’s owners, Aaron and Melissa Klein, declaring that their refusal to produce the cake wasn’t protected by the First Amendment and instead was simply illegal discrimination. In October, the bakery shut down entirely.

It wasn’t the only time Avakian used heavy fines to push gay rights. He also fined a bar owner more than $400,000 for telling a group of cross-dressers and transgender people to stay away, because the owner didn’t want his bar to be characterized as a “tranny bar.”

While the Kleins’ business was going downhill, Avakian turned his sights to higher office. In last week’s general election, he ran for Oregon secretary of state. But in an upset, Dennis Richardson, a former state representative and gubernatorial candidate, trounced Avakian. Richardson will become the first Republican to win an Oregon statewide office in 14 years, and the first Republican secretary of state since 1985.



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...


http://dailycaller.com/2016/11/14/oregon-official-who-destro...


http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/10/post_18...

This appears to be a little more balanced article, basically it indicates that the difference between the candidates is that Avakian wanted to turn the position into a policy-setting position, which it really isn't, and the republican candidate presented himself as a "numbers guy" who would act to prevent fiscal corruption.

That said the result, the fact that he was endorsed by several newspapers and even democratic political figures and the fact that Richardson won was pretty clearly a repudiation of the idea that the public cares if their secretary of state is socially conservative of socially liberal - they want him to stick to his traditional role and focus on auditing the government.


Utah has a lot of these guys right now, the "Let's make this office MEAN something" types. But sadly, Utah is giving into this. Kudos to Oregon for this choice.
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jeremy cobert
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remorseless1 wrote:
So if Google wanted to stop providing services to conservatives, you'd be good with that?


yes. I dont have any right to be served. I voluntarily do business with them and they with me.


remorseless1 wrote:
Or a Baptist mechanic refused to work on cars owned by Methodists?


yes. I dont have any right to be served. I voluntarily do business with them and they with me.

remorseless1 wrote:
I see it as "if you're going to run a business, then take every paying customer you have and don't be a jackass."


Is that part of your mythical "social contract" ?

remorseless1 wrote:
Different people see things differently, I guess. I've managed several small newspapers, my father owned a chain of used-book stores, and my oldest brothers runs his own ad company. We've all had to do business with people we absolutely detested, but we did it anyway.


Right, your business's main motivation is money. If a know child molester wants a book on knot tying, you get it for them no questions asked. But that's you, some people have different motivations then money. I would never force the jewish deli to party plan for a neo Nazi party. But that's me, I judge.


remorseless1 wrote:
Not sure why you think it's a good thing to discriminate against paying customers because


Because I believe that voluntary transactions are better then forced ones.


remorseless1 wrote:
what, they're doomed to burn in hell because they're gay?


Not sure where this came from, but I dont care if they are gay, I care that they are free.
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Mac Mcleod
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rcbevco wrote:
As long as they post clear signage to let customers know who they do and don't bake cakes for why should I care. let me guess they haven't posted one. I guess they don't want random doughnut and coffee buyers to know which businesses to "freely associate" with.


If they are going to discriminate against any group of citizens I'd want higher insurance premiums from them as they are more likely to be vandalized.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Should a devout muslim barber, who is not supposed to touch a woman who is not a relative, be obliged to cut the hair of a woman who is not a relative?
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R. Frazier
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I'm not certain how the law would respond. On a personal level I am against gender discrimination in the provision of services, however I think it's reasonable to indicate that you are only good at providing services to a single gender, so that's a bit of a tricky call. Demanding a haircut from a guy who doesn't specialize in cutting the hair of your gender sounds like a bad idea.
 
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Pontifex Maximus
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deadkenny wrote:
Should a devout muslim barber, who is not supposed to touch a woman who is not a relative, be obliged to cut the hair of a woman who is not a relative?


Easy fix, have a barber on hand who can. One rarely sees a one man shop.

Problem sol-ved

And that way he can still serve the General Public
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casey r lowe
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Re: Oregon Official Who Destroyed Christian Bakery Over Gay Wedding Cake Loses Election
and i here i thought the thuggish bakery destroyed themselves by not following the rules - fortunately in trumps america law&order will return
 
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casey r lowe
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deadkenny wrote:
Should a devout muslim barber, who is not supposed to touch a woman who is not a relative, be obliged to cut the hair of a woman who is not a relative?

get you a man who can do both
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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maxo-texas wrote:
rcbevco wrote:
As long as they post clear signage to let customers know who they do and don't bake cakes for why should I care. let me guess they haven't posted one. I guess they don't want random doughnut and coffee buyers to know which businesses to "freely associate" with.


If they are going to discriminate against any group of citizens I'd want higher insurance premiums from them as they are more likely to be vandalized.


I could see it work both ways. I could see a business that is inclusive could get vandalized for catering to... well... you know. Them.
 
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Jeff Staff
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deadkenny wrote:
Should a devout muslim barber, who is not supposed to touch a woman who is not a relative, be obliged to cut the hair of a woman who is not a relative?

"Quick to the Safe placE! Assume fetal position!!!"
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Jeff Staff
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Kumitedad wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
Should a devout muslim barber, who is not supposed to touch a woman who is not a relative, be obliged to cut the hair of a woman who is not a relative?


Easy fix, have a barber on hand who can. One rarely sees a one man shop.

Problem sol-ved

And that way he can still serve the General Public

But it's a Muslim owned family run barber shop. You dodged.
 
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Moshe Callen
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Would anyone object if a barber posted a clearly visible sign saying they serve only men? Growing up in the US South, this was common and the reasons given for it were that the basic styles for men and women were different enough to matter.
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