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Rise and Decline of the Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can GB build Polish units while Poland is unconquered rss

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Christopher Aulepp
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Question. Poland is not conquered in Fall 1939. Poland has lost some units. Can Great Britain build those units in Poland?

Follow-up question if the answer to the above is yes. There are German tanks parked to the east and west of Warsaw. Can Poland build units on its capital regardless of whether or not the capital is in the ZOC of an enemy tank?

I can't find an answer directly on point. I will say this. The rule book specifically talks about rebuilding units of minor countries, including Swedish units (but not Swedish fleets). Therefore, for those who believe that only axis minor allies (e.g. Hungary, Finland, etc.) can be rebuilt I respond that the actual text of the rules refutes that idea at least by inference.

Thanks in advance.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Of course the rules are not clear on this point. IIRC the rules do not allow the building of Swedish units. They do list Sweden, along with a number of other countries, that cannot rebuild fleets.

My view, having gone through the rules in order to ascertain the status and functioning of minor Poland pre-conquest, is that Polish units cannot be rebuilt. Only minors mentioned in the Axis minor allies rules section may have their units rebuilt. Note, that even though the section is mostly referring to Axis minor allies, there is a possibility that Turkey or Spain could becoming a minor ally of the Allies. In that case I believe their units could be rebuilt by the Allies. But not so for Poland, or any other minor country that becomes a minor ally due to Allied intervention. Hope this helps.
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craig grinnell
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OU_Sooner wrote:
Question. Poland is not conquered in Fall 1939. Poland has lost some units. Can Great Britain build those units in Poland?

Follow-up question if the answer to the above is yes. There are German tanks parked to the east and west of Warsaw. Can Poland build units on its capital regardless of whether or not the capital is in the ZOC of an enemy tank?

I can't find an answer directly on point. I will say this. The rule book specifically talks about rebuilding units of minor countries, including Swedish units (but not Swedish fleets). Therefore, for those who believe that only axis minor allies (e.g. Hungary, Finland, etc.) can be rebuilt I respond that the actual text of the rules refutes that idea at least by inference.

Thanks in advance.


Short answer, NO.
Quote:
22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.


Intervention doesn't make Poland a minor ally. Only Finland, Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria are considered as such, although intervention would make Spain or Turkey a minor ally.

either way, lost units prior to activation/intervention are still permanently lost. And Poland isn't actually a British ally, but more of a co-belligerent.
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James Cox
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OU_Sooner wrote:
Question. Poland is not conquered in Fall 1939. Poland has lost some units. Can Great Britain build those units in Poland?

Follow-up question if the answer to the above is yes. There are German tanks parked to the east and west of Warsaw. Can Poland build units on its capital regardless of whether or not the capital is in the ZOC of an enemy tank?

I can't find an answer directly on point. I will say this. The rule book specifically talks about rebuilding units of minor countries, including Swedish units (but not Swedish fleets). Therefore, for those who believe that only axis minor allies (e.g. Hungary, Finland, etc.) can be rebuilt I respond that the actual text of the rules refutes that idea at least by inference.

Thanks in advance.


The issue is not whether only AMs can and no one else can - the issue is about ZOC, placement, and intervention.
Although... Br/Fr do not need to 'intervene' because the scenario states that they are already fully allied at game-start...Hmmm...
 
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James Cox
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deadkenny wrote:
Of course the rules are not clear on this point. IIRC the rules do not allow the building of Swedish units. They do list Sweden, along with a number of other countries, that cannot rebuild fleets.

My view, having gone through the rules in order to ascertain the status and functioning of minor Poland pre-conquest, is that Polish units cannot be rebuilt. Only minors mentioned in the Axis minor allies rules section may have their units rebuilt. Note, that even though the section is mostly referring to Axis minor allies, there is a possibility that Turkey or Spain could becoming a minor ally of the Allies. In that case I believe their units could be rebuilt by the Allies. But not so for Poland, or any other minor country that becomes a minor ally due to Allied intervention. Hope this helps.


No, no, no.
Minors (fka neutrals) can have a major rebuild their units. Tell me you've never played a game where Br or Fr didn't rebuild Gr, Yu, Ne, Be, or No units (presuming of course Br/Fr could get a ground unit ashore), or Ru - or even Ge! - rebuilt Tu units (again, if Ru/Ge got ground units in) ?

?!
 
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James Cox
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grinnell1969 wrote:
OU_Sooner wrote:
Question. Poland is not conquered in Fall 1939. Poland has lost some units. Can Great Britain build those units in Poland?

Follow-up question if the answer to the above is yes. There are German tanks parked to the east and west of Warsaw. Can Poland build units on its capital regardless of whether or not the capital is in the ZOC of an enemy tank?

I can't find an answer directly on point. I will say this. The rule book specifically talks about rebuilding units of minor countries, including Swedish units (but not Swedish fleets). Therefore, for those who believe that only axis minor allies (e.g. Hungary, Finland, etc.) can be rebuilt I respond that the actual text of the rules refutes that idea at least by inference.

Thanks in advance.


Short answer, NO.
Quote:
22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.


Intervention doesn't make Poland a minor ally. Only Finland, Romania, Hungary, and Bulgaria are considered as such, although intervention would make Spain or Turkey a minor ally.

either way, lost units prior to activation/intervention are still permanently lost. And Poland isn't actually a British ally, but more of a co-belligerent.


More importantly, grinnel1969, how did you get that big fat Screaming Eagle patch in such a large icon? And how did you change the caption pop-up upon mouse-over it?
I'm curious because I was once a dope on a rope too. My second-to-last last duty station, after being a para in the Eighty-Duece. Been in both the 325 (82d) and the 327 (101st) Inf regts. Odd, seems the Army sent me to the one former glider unit in both divisions I wonder if that was purely a coincidence...
 
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James Cox
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grinnell1969 wrote:


Quote:
22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.





But wait. Once intervention occurs, isn't the 'neutral' now an active and minor and ally?
It's a minor, obviously.
It's an ally, as it shares a common enemy.
It's "active", because intervention occurred and it is still fighting.
Hence, an active. Minor. Ally.

If cannot rebuild such units, then why bother having that whole intervention rule set? What, just for the occasional chance that a major could claim its BRPs in case it wasn't yet dead at the next YSS? That cant be the reason. There must be more. Such as hex control, supply trace, basing, BRPs, and the ability to regenerate losses.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Kukailimoku wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
Of course the rules are not clear on this point. IIRC the rules do not allow the building of Swedish units. They do list Sweden, along with a number of other countries, that cannot rebuild fleets.

My view, having gone through the rules in order to ascertain the status and functioning of minor Poland pre-conquest, is that Polish units cannot be rebuilt. Only minors mentioned in the Axis minor allies rules section may have their units rebuilt. Note, that even though the section is mostly referring to Axis minor allies, there is a possibility that Turkey or Spain could becoming a minor ally of the Allies. In that case I believe their units could be rebuilt by the Allies. But not so for Poland, or any other minor country that becomes a minor ally due to Allied intervention. Hope this helps.


No, no, no.
Minors (fka neutrals) can have a major rebuild their units. Tell me you've never played a game where Br or Fr didn't rebuild Gr, Yu, Ne, Be, or No units (presuming of course Br/Fr could get a ground unit ashore), or Ru - or even Ge! - rebuilt Tu units (again, if Ru/Ge got ground units in) ?

?!


As noted, Spain and Turkey are exceptions. Greek, Yugoslav, Dutch and Belgian units cannot be rebuilt.
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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OK, we've gone through this exercise previously. The rules are, yet again, not explicit. However, one can sift through and draw some reasonable conclusions.

Let's start with this:

Quote:
22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.


OK, so the key phrase here is "Active Minor Allies". Clearly if a minor qualifies as an "Active Minor Ally" its units can be rebuilt. Otherwise they cannot.

So, looking through the use of that term, one can see that Germany's (i.e. Axis Minor Allies) can be active or inactive. I think the section on Axis Minor Allies makes it clear that if they are "active", they qualify as "Active Minor Allies". Now, for example, lets' look at this:

Quote:
10.34 To the new BRP Base, add the BRP value of all active Minor Allies, attacked but unconquered Minors for which the country has intervened and all conquered countries and colonies not already controlled by the nation at the start of the scenario.


Note here that "active Minor Allies" and attacked but unconquered Minors where intervention has occurred are mentioned as two distinct entities.

Another example, in a rule referring to attrition combat losses:

Quote:
18.31 ... Units of a defending major power‘s active minor allies or of a minor in which the defending major power has intervened may be taken to satisfy the major‘s losses and vice versa....


Again, "active minor allies" and minor in which intervention has taken place are mentioned separately. I believe this reading is consistent. I do not believe "active minor allies" was intended to include minors where intervention has taken place, but rather minors covered in section 25. Although the section is entitled Axis Minor Allies, it covers Spain and Turkey which can potentially become minor allies of the Allies, in which case I believe the Allies could rebuild Spanish or Turkish units.
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Patrick Bauer
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No matter how you read the minor allies rule: in regards to your follow-up; capitals provide no special significance in regards to building while in ZoC. If you put Paris in a ZoC, the French cannot build there. Nor any Poles in Warsaw should you play where its units can be rebuilt.
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craig grinnell
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Kukailimoku wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:


Quote:
22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.





But wait. Once intervention occurs, isn't the 'neutral' now an active and minor and ally?
It's a minor, obviously.
It's an ally, as it shares a common enemy.
It's "active", because intervention occurred and it is still fighting.
Hence, an active. Minor. Ally.

If cannot rebuild such units, then why bother having that whole intervention rule set? What, just for the occasional chance that a major could claim its BRPs in case it wasn't yet dead at the next YSS? That cant be the reason. There must be more. Such as hex control, supply trace, basing, BRPs, and the ability to regenerate losses.

Minor allies are defined in rule 25. It is specific about which minors are considered minor allies.
25.22 adds Spain and Turkey as conditional and extends to EITHER side (Axis or Allies)
25.23 adds Vichy France in the same way.
The intervention rule is more for BRPs, as well as allowing coordinated turns.

And the full on 101 patch I found online and used up some GeekGold to add it as my avatar and more to add the text-over
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Christopher Aulepp
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Rule 22.5 says minor country units are lost permanently and cannot be rebuilt, but active minor country's units can be rebuilt by the country that controls them.

Rule 28.66 says, "28.66 Minor country 2-4 air units have no partial counters and therefore may not be broken down. Spanish, Turk and Iraqi 2-4 units may be reconstructed only if those nations become active Minor Allies. Should Vichy France have partial air counters at the time of activation as a Minor Ally, such partial counters could be reconstructed."

Rule 28.66 shows that not just the German minors (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland) can become active minor allies. A minor country can be active and controlled by the allies too.

Rule 25.5 deals with German active minor allies. Rule 25.5 says, "25.5 Active Minor Allies must conform to the Option being used by Germany on each front. Germany pays reconstruction costs for eliminated units "

There is a DQB for the Polish. It states, "DQB (& 43.31) If Russia and Germany go to war, what is the status of Polish forces if they are still on the board? A. Polish and Russian forces are friendly to each other, but rule 45 – Russo-Allied Cooperation – applies. The British player still controls the Poles per 22.1. Poland must conform to Russian option selections, but may join in Russian offensive options without BRP costs to Britain. "

Poland seems to have similar restrictions on Poland's option selections (it must conform to Russia's choice) just like the German minor allies have to conform to Germany's choice. Similarly, Germany does not pay extra for Hungary's option selections. Neither does GB. This leads me to believe that Poland is an active minor ally and GB could rebuild her forces. But I'm not certain.
 
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Christopher Aulepp
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Actually, I think this rule solves the problem, at least by inference:

"29.83 Turkey, Spain, Vichy France, Sweden, and the Free French may never rebuild fleets even if they should become active Minor Allies."

The inclusion of Sweden in this list makes all the difference in my opinion. Sweden cannot become an active minor ally by playing a variant. Thus, there must be another way to make it an active minor ally, such as by intervention.But nothing says that rebuilding units is limited to intervention. Instead, rebuilding units is limited to active minor allies.

Is Poland active? yes. If they were inactive their units would not be on the board. Nobody seriously doubts they are active.

Is Poland a minor or major power? The book has a whole sectionof conquering major powers. Poland is not a major power, which means it is a minor power.

Is Poland allied to GB? Obviously, yes.

Since Poland is an active minor ally of GB, then GB should be able to build the Polish units.

That's my opinion.



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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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OU_Sooner wrote:
Rule 22.5 says minor country units are lost permanently and cannot be rebuilt, but active minor country's units can be rebuilt by the country that controls them.

Rule 28.66 says, "28.66 Minor country 2-4 air units have no partial counters and therefore may not be broken down. Spanish, Turk and Iraqi 2-4 units may be reconstructed only if those nations become active Minor Allies. Should Vichy France have partial air counters at the time of activation as a Minor Ally, such partial counters could be reconstructed."

Rule 28.66 shows that not just the German minors (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland) can become active minor allies. A minor country can be active and controlled by the allies too.

Rule 25.5 deals with German active minor allies. Rule 25.5 says, "25.5 Active Minor Allies must conform to the Option being used by Germany on each front. Germany pays reconstruction costs for eliminated units "


All of those are section 25 minors (plus Vichy has its own rules section). There isn't any doubt that the section 25 minors can have their units rebuilt. However, that does not automatically extend to all other minors that become controlled due to intervention. As I stated above, the rules implicitly create two distinct categories of minors.

OU_Sooner wrote:
There is a DQB for the Polish. It states, "DQB (& 43.31) If Russia and Germany go to war, what is the status of Polish forces if they are still on the board? A. Polish and Russian forces are friendly to each other, but rule 45 – Russo-Allied Cooperation – applies. The British player still controls the Poles per 22.1. Poland must conform to Russian option selections, but may join in Russian offensive options without BRP costs to Britain. "

Poland seems to have similar restrictions on Poland's option selections (it must conform to Russia's choice) just like the German minor allies have to conform to Germany's choice. Similarly, Germany does not pay extra for Hungary's option selections. Neither does GB. This leads me to believe that Poland is an active minor ally and GB could rebuild her forces. But I'm not certain.


All minors, whether "active minor allies" or controlled due to intervention (or Poland, which is a special case of a minor being controlled by Britain at start, without intervention being required) must conform to the option of the major power controlling them. The DBQ provides for an exception, because although Poland is controlled by Britain, it conforms to the option of Russia.

In any case, different categories of minors sharing some common rules doesn't establish that they work the same way for all purposes. In some ways, minor countries work the same way as major countries. That doesn't make them major countries.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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OU_Sooner wrote:
Actually, I think this rule solves the problem, at least by inference:

"29.83 Turkey, Spain, Vichy France, Sweden, and the Free French may never rebuild fleets even if they should become active Minor Allies."

The inclusion of Sweden in this list makes all the difference in my opinion. Sweden cannot become an active minor ally by playing a variant. Thus, there must be another way to make it an active minor ally, such as by intervention.But nothing says that rebuilding units is limited to intervention. Instead, rebuilding units is limited to active minor allies.


There is some "evidence" here. However, I don't believe that trumps all other sections of the rules. As noted previously Turkey, Spain and Vichy France all are in the "active minor ally" category without a doubt. Sweden is the only other minor with a fleet. So the inclusion in this rule, while providing a bit of contradictory evidence (and there's plenty of that in the rules) doesn't necessarily imply that Sweden is in that same category for all purposes. It is even more of a stretch to conclude all other minors are therefore in the same category. Why make a distinction between "active minor allies" and minors controlled due to intervention (as pointed out previously) if in fact they are all "active minor allies"? The inclusion of Sweden in that list is, IMHO, a rather slender "hook" to hang everything else on. Especially given multiple explicitly contradictory indications elsewhere in the rules.

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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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The other angle to approach this issue is that of consequences of interpreting the rules one way or the other. IMHO, those minors not covered by section 25 are not "active minor allies" and thus they are always limited by the general minor country restrictions. One of those restrictions is that their units cannot be rebuilt. Another is geographical restrictions on where their units can move to.

Section 25 allows "active minor allied" units to move outside of their home country, but puts specific limits on where else they can move to. For example 25.41 limits Finnish units to an area within 6 hexes of Finland. Other restrictions follow. However, no restrictions are given for any other minor. So if you're considering all minors where intervention has taken place to be "active minor allies", there is no longer a requirement that they stay in their home country. Without any other wider restriction, as is listed in 25.4, it allows them to go anywhere.

So, for example, let us say Germany DoW's Belgium and falls to conquer it. Say Britain intervenes, making Belgium an "active minor ally". What prevents Britain from then shipping off the entire Belgian army to Egypt, to defend against the Italians while the BEF deploys to France? My interpretation would say that Belgium is a minor controlled due to intervention, but not an "active minor ally" and therefore Belgian units still cannot leave Belgium.
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Christopher Aulepp
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deadkenny wrote:
OU_Sooner wrote:
Rule 22.5 says minor country units are lost permanently and cannot be rebuilt, but active minor country's units can be rebuilt by the country that controls them.

Rule 28.66 says, "28.66 Minor country 2-4 air units have no partial counters and therefore may not be broken down. Spanish, Turk and Iraqi 2-4 units may be reconstructed only if those nations become active Minor Allies. Should Vichy France have partial air counters at the time of activation as a Minor Ally, such partial counters could be reconstructed."

Rule 28.66 shows that not just the German minors (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland) can become active minor allies. A minor country can be active and controlled by the allies too.

Rule 25.5 deals with German active minor allies. Rule 25.5 says, "25.5 Active Minor Allies must conform to the Option being used by Germany on each front. Germany pays reconstruction costs for eliminated units "


All of those are section 25 minors (plus Vichy has its own rules section). There isn't any doubt that the section 25 minors can have their units rebuilt. However, that does not automatically extend to all other minors that become controlled due to intervention. As I stated above, the rules implicitly create two distinct categories of minors.


Actually, your statement that "all of those are section 25 minors" is not correct.

Rule 22, in general, talks about all minor countries, not just Germany's.

Rule 28 discusses air warfare. It is not specific to Germany, but applies to everybody.

Additionally, now that I take a closer look at Rule 22, I find additional evidence, at least by inference, that Poland (and any other active minor ally) should be able to have its units rebuilt.

Look at rule 22.1 That rule states:
Quote:
"22.1 When war is declared on a minor country, the nearest major power opponent or potential opponent of the attacker (as determined by distance in hexes from minor capital to major capital) sets up the minor country’s forces in their home country. Should the minor country survive the initial player turn of invasion, control of the minor’s forces would pass to whatever major power first intervenes. (Germany always controls her Minor Allies in the event they are attacked. Polish forces are set up and controlled by the British player.)"

In other words, Poland is being used in the same parenthesis and context as Germany's minor allies like Hungary. That's another inference that Poland (and all other minor allies) should be treated the same as Germany's.

Also look at Rules 22.4 through 22.5. Those state:
Quote:

22.4 At the start of the Campaign Game/1939 scenario Poland is allied with Britain and France. Should Poland survive into 1940, France and Britain may split Polish BRPs in any agreed manner at YSS (see 24.7).

22.5 Minor country units, when lost, are lost permanently; they may not be reconstructed. EXCEPTION: Active Minor Allies.


When read in context, immediately after saying Poland is allied with Britain and France comes the rule that active minor allies' units may be rebuilt. It's like the book says, hey, Poland is an active minor ally of GB and France. Followed by, you can't rebuild minor country's units unless they are active minor allies and I just got done telling you that Poland is an active minor ally of GB and France. The inference is obvious.

Additionally, I think some of the confusion about rebuilding units is because many people (myself included) mistakenly call Germany's allies by the wrong name. The rule book actually calls Hungary, Finland, etc. "Axis Minor Allies". See the heading for Rule 25 and the definition as "axis minor allies" in 25.1.

Also, answering your concerns about shipping Belgium units to Egypt, the rules do not allow that. See Rule 22.7.

In fact, Rule 22.7 read in conjunction with Rule 25.1 is even more evidence that any active minor allied country's units may be rebuilt. Rule 25.1 says that all the rules in 22 and 24 apply to axis minor allies, but in addition there are special rules about Hungary, Finland, etc. It is only those special rules found in 25 that permit the Germans to move Hungary, Finland, Romania, and Bulgaria's units outside their native borders.

The source for rebuilding units is found in Rule 22 and rule 22 applies to all active minor allies, not just the Axis active minor allies. This would be different if the rule about rebuilding units was found in Rule 25, instead of rule 22. My point is that because the source for rebuilding units is found in 22 and rule 22 applies to all active minor allies (not just Germany's) the inference is that all active minor allied country's units can be rebuilt.

Rule 25.1 says we take all the Rules in 22 and we add to them a few additional rules that apply specifically to the Axis. However, the additional rules on the axis minor allies does not eliminate the general rule (found in rule 22) that applies to all active minor allies.



 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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OU_Sooner wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
OU_Sooner wrote:
Rule 22.5 says minor country units are lost permanently and cannot be rebuilt, but active minor country's units can be rebuilt by the country that controls them.

Rule 28.66 says, "28.66 Minor country 2-4 air units have no partial counters and therefore may not be broken down. Spanish, Turk and Iraqi 2-4 units may be reconstructed only if those nations become active Minor Allies. Should Vichy France have partial air counters at the time of activation as a Minor Ally, such partial counters could be reconstructed."

Rule 28.66 shows that not just the German minors (e.g. Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Finland) can become active minor allies. A minor country can be active and controlled by the allies too.

Rule 25.5 deals with German active minor allies. Rule 25.5 says, "25.5 Active Minor Allies must conform to the Option being used by Germany on each front. Germany pays reconstruction costs for eliminated units "


All of those are section 25 minors (plus Vichy has its own rules section). There isn't any doubt that the section 25 minors can have their units rebuilt. However, that does not automatically extend to all other minors that become controlled due to intervention. As I stated above, the rules implicitly create two distinct categories of minors.


Actually, your statement that "all of those are section 25 minors" is not correct.


Every single country explicitly mentioned is a section 25 minor. Section 25 minors are all also minors. However, not all minors are section 25 minors. The general minor country rules apply to section 25 minors, unless there is an explicit exception made in section 25. Those minors not covered by section 25 do not have those exceptions, and are governed by the general minors rules.

OU_Sooner wrote:
Additionally, now that I take a closer look at Rule 22, I find additional evidence, at least by inference, that Poland (and any other active minor ally) should be able to have its units rebuilt.

Look at rule 22.1 That rule states:
Quote:
"22.1 When war is declared on a minor country, the nearest major power opponent or potential opponent of the attacker (as determined by distance in hexes from minor capital to major capital) sets up the minor country’s forces in their home country. Should the minor country survive the initial player turn of invasion, control of the minor’s forces would pass to whatever major power first intervenes. (Germany always controls her Minor Allies in the event they are attacked. Polish forces are set up and controlled by the British player.)"

In other words, Poland is being used in the same parenthesis and context as Germany's minor allies like Hungary. That's another inference that Poland (and all other minor allies) should be treated the same as Germany's.


In no way shape or form does the statement that Britain controls Polish forces at the start of the game imply that Poland falls under the section 25 exceptions for a minor. You are simply seizing on the fact that they have one thing in common to claim that they are the same. It doesn't follow logically.

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OU_Sooner wrote:
Also, answering your concerns about shipping Belgium units to Egypt, the rules do not allow that. See Rule 22.7.


Rule 22.7 states:


Quote:
22.7 Minor country ground units may not leave their home country (even if allied [see 23.1]) with a major power); air and naval units may not base outside their home country. (Spain may have units in the Balearic Islands and Spanish Morocco.) Again, Active Minor Allies are excepted.....


[emphasis added]

Your entire argument is predicated on minors being "Active Minor Allies" once intervention has occurred. You use that status to exempt them from the "units cannot be reconstructed" restriction in 22.5. But now you choose to ignore it for purposes of 22.7? No, that is a glaring contradiction. Back to the previous example, if Belgium becomes a British "active minor ally" upon British intervention then Belgian units can be rebuilt AND they can be moved to Egypt. If Belgium is simply a minor controlled by Britain due to British intervention, then Belgian units cannot be rebuilt and cannot leave Belgium. Logically it's a package deal, both one way or the other.



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OU_Sooner wrote:
...The source for rebuilding units is found in Rule 22 and rule 22 applies to all active minor allies, not just the Axis active minor allies. This would be different if the rule about rebuilding units was found in Rule 25, instead of rule 22. My point is that because the source for rebuilding units is found in 22 and rule 22 applies to all active minor allies (not just Germany's) the inference is that all active minor allied country's units can be rebuilt....


However, that "source for rebuilding units" in section 22 says they cannot be rebuilt, with the exception of "active minor allies", which are covered in section 25. From my perspective, you are turning that exception on it's head by arguing that it applies to all minors, whereas I see it as a reference to the exception which is contained in section 25.
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OU_Sooner wrote:
...Additionally, I think some of the confusion about rebuilding units is because many people (myself included) mistakenly call Germany's allies by the wrong name. The rule book actually calls Hungary, Finland, etc. "Axis Minor Allies". See the heading for Rule 25 and the definition as "axis minor allies" in 25.1.


Consistent terminology isn't the strong suit of this rules booklet. Although section 25 is entitled "Axis Minor Allies", note that they can be "active" or "inactive" at any point in time. Also note that section 25 covers Turkey and Spain. Turkey could become an Allied active minor ally. In that case the exceptions made for Turkey in section 25 would apply equally regardless of which side Turkey became active on.
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
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deadkenny wrote:

Rule 22.7 states:


Quote:
22.7 Minor country ground units may not leave their home country (even if allied [see 23.1]) with a major power); air and naval units may not base outside their home country. (Spain may have units in the Balearic Islands and Spanish Morocco.) Again, Active Minor Allies are excepted.....


[emphasis added]


I should also add that 22.7 provides another suggestion regarding the distinction between the types of minors. The first sentence states the general rule, that they cannot leave their home country "even if allied [see 23.1]" (23.1 being major power intervention in an unconquered minor). The next sentence goes on to state that "Active Minor Allies are excepted". According to your interpretation, "Active Minor Allies" are the same as minors which become "allied" due to intervention. Yet in 22.7, the two are treated differently.
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Steve Carter
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Woodbury
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I will jump in here with my own interpretation of the rules.

This "active Minor Ally" thing has frequently come up as an unclear area.
In my option, the word "active" means a minor country that needs to be "activated" in order to become an ally. I do NOT interpret this to be the same as Allies who become an ally via intervention. The rules explicitly name countries that need to be "activated" to become an ally. Spain and Turkey are included in this category via the Variants, in which they are "activated" as Axis Minors by a DoW (and Turkey can become an Allied Minor via the conditions specified in the rule book).

Since the rules do not say anything about Poland being "activated" I do not believe it could rebuild any eliminated units.
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craig grinnell
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speer
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deadkenny wrote:

Every single country explicitly mentioned is a section 25 minor. Section 25 minors are all also minors. However, not all minors are section 25 minors. The general minor country rules apply to section 25 minors, unless there is an explicit exception made in section 25. Those minors not covered by section 25 do not have those exceptions, and are governed by the general minors rules.


"minor" was said NINE times there. This is becoming a bit of a minor nuisance in regards to minors and other minor rules that cover minor countries. To be fair, minor countries are really only minor because they were quickly beaten down. No matter what the rules say, and how differently they are interpreted, somebody will always say that "Mine'r better than yours."

But to be even more fair minded about these poor miners, they do spend an awful lot of time in dark and damp places.

I know that was totally pointless and derailing, but I felt that a little MINOR levity was necessary. So, call me names, if you will. I can take a little minor ribbing
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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tallracer333 wrote:
I will jump in here with my own interpretation of the rules.

This "active Minor Ally" thing has frequently come up as an unclear area.
In my option, the word "active" means a minor country that needs to be "activated" in order to become an ally. I do NOT interpret this to be the same as Allies who become an ally via intervention. The rules explicitly name countries that need to be "activated" to become an ally. Spain and Turkey are included in this category via the Variants, in which they are "activated" as Axis Minors by a DoW (and Turkey can become an Allied Minor via the conditions specified in the rule book).

Since the rules do not say anything about Poland being "activated" I do not believe it could rebuild any eliminated units.


I think that's a good way to think about it. Certain minors can be "activated". Others cannot. Those that can be "activated" are typically activated by a specific mechanism. Most, but not all, can be "activated" by intervention, if attacked but not conquered. One notable exception is Vichy France. IIRC we had a bit of a discussion regarding what happens if the Allies attack Vichy, but activation does not occur (for Vichy intervention is not sufficient to automatically activate it, a successful die roll is still required). Reference rules 25.22 and 25.24. Also note 25.2 in which German minor allies would be activated by German intervention - however, the opposite does not apply - i.e. if Germany DoW'd an inactive minor ally (which they are allowed to do) intervention by the Allies would not "activate" that minor (in the sense of section 25).

On balance it seems apparent to me that there is a distinction between an active (or activated) minor ally and one that is simply allied by intervention. Those only amount to the same thing in cases specified in section 25 (e.g. 25.22).
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