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Jon Snow
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Don't see why not...

This came up when playing a new Standard Austerlitz scenario for Expansion Six, but since it requires no new rules from that, I ask it here.
 
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my eye
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chas59 wrote:
Don't see why not...

This came up when playing a new Standard Austerlitz scenario for Expansion Six, but since it requires no new rules from that, I ask it here.


This came up for us also. But we could find no rules to suggest otherwise.
 
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Michael Dippel
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All Things which aren't forbidden in the rules are allowed!
And remember all combination ART's must be in "range" and not in melee with Target.
 
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chas59 wrote:
Don't see why not...

This came up when playing a new Standard Austerlitz scenario for Expansion Six, but since it requires no new rules from that, I ask it here.


This was clarified in the FAQ online. Emphasis added:

Quote:
Grand Battery
Q: Does a Grand Battery need only 1 order for the complete GB or an order for each single ART in the GB?

A: Each Artillery unit in a Grand Battery needs to be given order. One or more artillery units, when ordered as a Grand Battery, may only engage in ranged combat. For simplicity sake and to avoid a list of exceptions and possible clarifications, a Grand Battery may not combine its dice in melee.
(Richard Borg; 2016 - March - 27)


http://www.commandsandcolors.net/napoleonics/the-game/main/f...

So Grand Batteries may only conduct ranged combat and may not take part in melee, such as a combined arms attack.

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Michael Dippel
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Not exact Brady
Look above.
The key rule here is, the Art itself must fire in range to combine a grand Battery.
 
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Well, unless combined arms attacks are not a form of melee, I don't understand your point.

…And you edited your post after I posted my FAQ quote. You are not an honest broker.
 
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Michael Dippel
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I will check it.
Richards statement changed already
a few times here, sadly
(still wished rules without any FAQ's)
 
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Jon Snow
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goo Or you could rephrase it to say "a Grand Battery cannot combine together when firing canister (at a range of one)." That would still allow the shot in question, while covering the case.
 
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Michael Dippel
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Just got Richards answer and
my answer above is right.
The intention are indeed the keywords
"range" and "melee" of the ART's
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Mark McG
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I think this is a misformed question. Grand Battery and Combined Arms are completely separate. The rules state;

COMBINED ARMS COMBAT
When an ordered infantry or cavalry unit is about to attack an enemy unit in melee, one or more ordered artillery units may combine their battle dice with the attacking unit. A combined arms combat must be declared before any battle dice are rolled.
All ordered artillery units in the combined arms combat must be in range and have a clear line of sight to enemy unit that is being attacked. An Artillery unit on a hill may not combine arms if it has to fire over the heads of a friendly unit on a lower adjacent hex. The artillery unit must have an unobstructed line of sight path to the targeted enemy. No units or terrain may occupy the line of sight path in a declared combined arms combat.

Grand Battery
When an army has two or more Artillery units in adjacent contiguous hexes, the units may be ordered to battle as a Grand Battery. The Artillery units in a Grand Battery may target the same enemy unit in ranged combat and will roll all their battle dice at the same.
• Each ordered Artillery unit, in the Grand Battery, determines the number of battle dice it will roll in the range combat including any terrain reductions.
• An Artillery unit must have range and have a clear line of sight to the enemy unit that is being targeted.

So the upshot is that any number of artillery (adjacent or otherise) can use combined arms with an infantry or cavalry (but NOT artillery) attacker, and that any number of adjacent artillery can combine as a Grand Battery to make a RANGED attack against a target in LOS that is not adjacent to any of them.

What you can't have is artillery that is in melee combine with artillery that isn't. This is covered by Richard's FAQ response.
http://www.commandsandcolors.net/napoleonics/the-game/main/f...
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Michael Dippel
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Mark is right, was confused about the question too.

Combined attack and Grand Battery
are 2 different things.

CA you need one melee INF or CAV
which can supported with any number
of ART, indifferent if those ART's
are in melee with target or not.

GB you have ordered ARTs only
and none of those may be in melee.
So a "combined attack" with ART's
only into melee is not possible.
And this is what the FAQ about GB wants
to say.

And sry for the edits, writing with Smartphone is cruel.
 
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Pardon my denseness here, but I see the OP's question "Can a Grand Battery Fire In A Combined Arms attack?" requiring a 'yes" or "no" answer.

Assuming that one understands the rules for Combined Arms and Grand Battery, are we saying that artillery firing from range in a Combined Arms are in melee because the unit in melee that is initiating the Combined Arms is the determining factor? If so, then the answer is "no". Never.

If we are saying that artillery firing from range in a Combined Arms retain their range status, then the answer is "yes". As long as the rules for Combined Arms and Grand Battery are followed.



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Mark McG
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earache wrote:
Pardon my denseness here, but I see the OP's question "Can a Grand Battery Fire In A Combined Arms attack?" requiring a 'yes" or "no" answer.

Assuming that one understands the rules for Combined Arms and Grand Battery, are we saying that artillery firing from range in a Combined Arms are in melee because the unit in melee that is initiating the Combined Arms is the determining factor? If so, then the answer is "no". Never.

If we are saying that artillery firing from range in a Combined Arms retain their range status, then the answer is "yes". As long as the rules for Combined Arms and Grand Battery are followed.


The answer is that it is impossible for the Combined Arms rule and the Grand Battery rule to be used simultaneously. You can make either a Combined Arms attack using that rule OR a Grand Battery attack using that rule.

Combined arms is a melee attack by infantry or cavalry, supported by any number of artillery units. Using multiple artillery to support a Combined Arms attack does not make it a Grand Battery attack, it is in fact more flexible.

Grand Battery is a ranged attack by multiple adjacent artillery units. If an artillery is adjacent to an enemy unit, it cannot use Grand Battery fire.
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Michael Dippel
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In combined attack supporting ART's
may be adjacent together and may be also
adjacent to the target.

This was already always possible but adjacent ARTs aren't here a Grand Battery.

A GB is only formed with adjacents ART's
which wants range fire together on the same Target. And here none of the ARTs
may be adjacent to an Enemy.

And to finish from my side the discuss.
ALL confirmed by Richard.
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In retrospect it is indeed a moot point as each artillery unit needs an order.

As I said, pardon my denseness.
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I read the OP's question the same way, earache. You're not being dense, just following the rules of English and the simple answer is 'No.'

Mark pointed out how, if you read the core rules for both Combined Arms and Grand Batteries carefully, there shouldn't be any confusion. (Though we know it can happen.) They are two different things.

The FAQ answer Richard gives gets you there, too. It says Grand Batteries can only engage in ranged combat and may not combine dice in Melee--which to me includes things like Combined Arms attacks at whatever range.

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Jon Snow
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whistle As far as I'm concerned, if the Grand Battery artillery is not adjacent to the target, they are making a ranged attack supporting, not directly taking part in, the infantry or cavalry melee attack as part of Combined Arms. Therefore, they can do it every day and twice on Sundays.

This is the first time I've ever gone against the consensus and Richard in any discussion on every C&C game ever produced, but there you have it. Of course, you don't have to play at my house...
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chas59, your ordered artillery units still get to attack and combine their dice on one target in one of two ways. You decide how you want to do it:

Combined Arms Attack (Melee Combat): An ordered infantry or cavalry unit engages in melee combat with an adjacent enemy unit and eligible ordered artillery units add their dice into a combined roll with them. All sword faces count. Beware that a First Strike or Bounce Flag that eliminates or forces the retreat of the attacking infantry or cavalry will cancel the whole attack.

Grand Battery Attack (Ranged Combat): Eligible artillery units combine their dice into one roll on the target unit. Beware that since this is ranged combat, swords faces have no effect. But no need to worry about First Strikes or Bounce Flags. The attack proceeds!
 
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