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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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This is a very good piece. Very long, and well worth reading, but filled with the sort of empirical data that a subset of RSP needs in order to accept anything as truth.

Although I doubt they will.* Because ideology trumps data. RSPers LOVE numbers. LOVE it when they can use numbers to prove their ideology. But if they encounter numbers that disprove their ideology, those numbers must die.

However, if you have an open mind (ha!) and want to deprogram yourself a bit . . . here's a piece that will help. (And it comes from a Trump critic, so . . . bear that in mind.)

You Are Still Crying Wolf


Quote:
A New York Times article from last September that went viral only recently: Crying Wolf, Then Confronting Trump. It asks whether Democrats have “cried wolf” so many times that nobody believes them anymore. And so:

Quote:
When “honorable and decent men” like McCain and Romney “are reflexively dubbed racists simply for opposing Democratic policies, the result is a G.O.P. electorate that doesn’t listen to admonitions when the genuine article is in their midst”.


I have a different perspective. Back in October 2015, I wrote that the picture of Trump as “the white power candidate” and “the first openly white supremacist candidate to have a shot at the Presidency in the modern era” was overblown. I said that “the media narrative that Trump is doing some kind of special appeal-to-white-voters voodoo is unsupported by any polling data”, and predicted that:

Quote:
If Trump were the Republican nominee, he could probably count on equal or greater support from minorities as Romney or McCain before him.


Now the votes are in, and Trump got greater support from minorities than Romney or McCain before him. You can read the Washington Post article, Trump Got More Votes From People Of Color Than Romney Did, or look at the raw data . . .

Trump made gains among blacks. He made gains among Latinos. He made gains among Asians. The only major racial group where he didn’t get a gain of greater than 5% was white people. I want to repeat that: the group where Trump’s message resonated least over what we would predict from a generic Republican was the white population.

Nor was there some surge in white turnout. I don’t think we have official numbers yet, but by eyeballing what data we have it looks very much like whites turned out in equal or lesser numbers this year than in 2012, 2008, and so on.


. . .

Quote:
There is no evidence that Donald Trump is more racist than any past Republican candidate (or any other 70 year old white guy, for that matter). All this stuff about how he’s “the candidate of the KKK” and “the vanguard of a new white supremacist movement” is made up. It’s a catastrophic distraction from the dozens of other undeniable problems with Trump that could have convinced voters to abandon him. That it came to dominate the election cycle should be considered a horrifying indictment of our political discourse, in the same way that it would be a horrifying indictment of our political discourse if the entire Republican campaign had been based around the theory that Hillary Clinton was a secret Satanist. Yes, calling Romney a racist was crying wolf. But you are still crying wolf.

I avoided pushing this point any more since last October because I didn’t want to look like I was supporting Trump, or accidentally convince anyone else to support Trump. But since we’re past the point where that matters anymore, I want to present my case.

I realize that all of this is going to make me sound like a crazy person and put me completely at odds with every respectable thinker in the media, but luckily, being a crazy person at odds with every respectable thinker in the media has been a pretty good ticket to predictive accuracy lately, so whatever.


He goes on from there to point out -- WITH NUMBERS! -- that even if Trump was actively trying to reach out to White Supremacists for votes, their numbers are so tiny that it would have practically no effect on the outcome.

This central portion is overly long . . . but I think does a good job explaining -- WITH NUMBERS! -- how Fear of a White Planet is ridiculously overblown, and whoever is peddling such nonsense is Disingenuous™.

The closing is great:

Quote:
Why am I harping on this?

I work in mental health.
So far I have had two patients express Trump-related suicidal ideation. One of them ended up in the emergency room, although luckily both of them are now safe and well. I have heard secondhand of several more.

Like Snopes, I am not sure if the reports of eight transgender people committing suicide due to the election results are true or false. But if they’re true, it seems really relevant that Trump denounced North Carolina’s anti-transgender bathroom law, and proudly proclaimed he would let Caitlyn Jenner use whatever bathroom she wanted in Trump Tower, making him by far the most pro-transgender Republican president in history.

I notice news articles like Vox: Donald Trump’s Win Tells People Of Color They Aren’t Welcome In America. Or Salon’s If Trump Wins, Say Goodbye To Your Black Friends. MSN: Women Fear For Their Lives After Trump Victory.

Vox writes about the five-year-old child who asks “Is Donald Trump a bad person? Because I heard that if he becomes president, all the black and brown people have to leave and we’re going to become slaves.” The Star writes about a therapist called in for emergency counseling to help Muslim kids who think Trump is going to kill them. I have patients who are afraid to leave their homes.

Listen. Trump is going to be approximately as racist as every other American president. Maybe I’m wrong and he’ll be a bit more. Maybe he’ll surprise us and be a bit less. But most likely he’ll be about as racist as Ronald Reagan, who employed Holocaust denier Pat Buchanan as a senior advisor. Or about as racist as George Bush with his famous Willie Horton ad. Or about as racist as Bill “superpredator” Clinton, who took a photo op in front of a group of chained black men in the birthplace of the KKK. Or about as racist as Bush “doesn’t care about black people!” 43. He’ll have some scandals, people who want to see them as racist will see them as racist, people who don’t will dismiss them as meaningless, and nobody will end up in death camps.

Since everyone has been wrong about everything lately, I’ve started thinking it’s more important than ever to make clear predictions and grade myself on them, so here are my predictions for the Trump administration:

1. Total hate crimes incidents as measured here will be not more than 125% of their 2015 value at any year during a Trump presidency, conditional on similar reporting methodology [confidence: 80%]

2. Total minority population of US citizens will increase throughout Trump’s presidency [confidence: 99%]

3. US Muslim population increases throughout Trump’s presidency [confidence: 95%]

4. Trump cabinet will be at least 10% minority [confidence: 90%], at least 20% minority [confidence: 70%], at least 30% minority [30%]. Here I’m defining “minority” to include nonwhites, Latinos, and LGBT people, though not women. Note that by this definition America as a whole is about 35% minority and Congress is about 15% minority.

5. Gay marriage will remain legal throughout a Trump presidency [confidence: 95%]

6. Race relations as perceived by blacks, as measured by this Gallup poll, will do better under Trump than they did under Obama (ie the change in race relations 2017-2021 will be less negative/more positive than the change 2009-2016) [confidence: 70%].

7. Neither Trump nor any of his officials (Cabinet, etc) will endorse the KKK, Stormfront, or explicit neo-Nazis publicly, refuse to back down, etc, and keep their job [confidence: 99%].

If you disagree with me, come up with a bet and see if I’ll take it.



And here's the finale:

Quote:
If you disagree with me, come up with a bet and see if I’ll take it.

And if you don’t, stop.

Stop fearmongering. Somewhere in America, there are still like three or four people who believe the media, and those people are cowering in their houses waiting for the death squads.

Stop crying wolf.
God forbid, one day we might have somebody who doesn’t give speeches about how diversity makes this country great and how he wants to fight for minorities, who doesn’t pose holding a rainbow flag and state that he proudly supports transgender people, who doesn’t outperform his party among minority voters, who wasn’t the leader of the Salute to Israel Parade, and who doesn’t offer minorities major cabinet positions. And we won’t be able to call that guy an “openly white supremacist Nazi homophobe”, because we already wasted all those terms this year.

Stop talking about dog whistles. The kabbalistic similarities between “dog-whistling” and “wolf-crying” are too obvious to ignore.

Stop writing articles breathlessly following everything the KKK says. Stop writing several times more articles about the KKK than there are actual Klansmen. Remember that thing where Trump started out as a random joke, and then the media covered him way more than any other candidate because he was so outrageous, and gave him what was essentially free advertising, and then he became President-elect of the United States? Is the lesson you learned from this experience that you need 24-7 coverage of the Ku Klux Klan?

Stop responding to everyone who worries about Wall Street or globalism or the elite with “I THINK YOU MEAN JEWS. BECAUSE JEWS ARE THE ELITES. ALL ELITES AND GLOBALISTS ARE JEWS. IF YOU’RE WORRIED ABOUT THE ELITE, IT’S DEFINITELY JEWS YOU SHOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT. IF YOU FEEL SCREWED BY WALL STREET, THEN THE PEOPLE WHO SCREWED YOU WERE THE JEWS. IT’S THE JEWS WHO ARE DOING ALL THIS, MAKE SURE TO REMEMBER THAT. DEFINITELY TRANSLATE YOUR HATRED TOWARDS A VAGUE ESTABLISHMENT INTO HATRED OF JEWS, BECAUSE THEY’RE TOTALLY THE ONES YOU’RE THINKING OF.” This means you, Vox. Someday those three or four people who still believe the media are going to read this stuff and immediately join the Nazi Party, and nobody will be able to blame them.

Stop saying that being against crime is a dog whistle for racism. Have you ever met a crime victim? They don’t like crime. I work with people from a poor area, and a lot of them have been raped, or permanently disfigured, or had people close to them murdered. You know what these people have in common? They don’t like crime When you say “the only reason someone could talk about law and order is that they secretly hate black people, because, y’know, all criminals are black”, not only are you an idiot, you’re a racist. Also, I judge you for not having read the polls saying that nonwhites are way more concerned about crime than white people are.

Stop turning everything into identity politics. The only thing the media has been able to do for the last five years is shout “IDENTITY POLITICS IDENTITY POLITICS IDENTITY POLITICS IDENTITY POLITICS IDENTITY POLITICS!” at everything, and then when the right wing finally says “Um, i…den-tity….poli-tics?” you freak out and figure that the only way they could have possibly learned that phrase is from the KKK.

Stop calling Trump voters racist. A metaphor: we have freedom of speech not because all speech is good, but because the temptation to ban speech is so great that, unless given a blanket prohibition, it would slide into universal censorship of any unpopular opinion. Likewise, I would recommend you stop calling Trump voters racist – not because none of them are, but because as soon as you give yourself that opportunity, it’s a slippery slope down to “anyone who disagrees with me on anything does so entirely out of raw seething hatred, and my entire outgroup is secret members of the KKK and so I am justified in considering them worthless human trash”. I’m not saying you’re teetering on the edge of that slope. I’m saying you’re way at the bottom, covered by dozens of feet of fallen rocks and snow. Also, I hear that accusing people of racism constantly for no reason is the best way to get them to vote for your candidate next time around. Assuming there is a next time.

Stop centering criticism of Donald Trump around this sort of stuff, and switch to literally anything else. Here is an incompetent thin-skinned ignorant boorish fraudulent omnihypocritical demagogue with no idea how to run a country, whose philosophy of governance basically boils down to “I’m going to win and not lose, details to be filled in later”, and all you can do is repeat, again and again, how he seems popular among weird Internet teenagers who post frog memes. In the middle of an emotionally incontinent reality TV show host getting his hand on the nuclear button, your chief complaint is that in the middle of a few dozen denunciations of the KKK, he once delayed denouncing the KKK for an entire 24 hours before going back to denouncing it again. When a guy who says outright that he won’t respect elections unless he wins them does, somehow, win an election, the headlines are how he once said he didn’t like globalists which means he must be anti-Semitic.

Stop making people suicidal.

Stop telling people they’re going to be killed.

Stop terrifying children.

Stop giving racism free advertising.

Stop trying to convince Americans that all the other Americans hate them.

Stop. Stop. Stop.


In closing, RSP . . . STOP.

And as usual . . . those who most need to hear this message will refuse to read and/or accept what's being said here.**

BUT NUMBERS!


-------

* Yes, I poisoned that well. Deal with it.
** Oops, I did it again.


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casey r lowe
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thought this thread was about a clinton scandal for sure
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Jon Badolato
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Quote:
Stop centering criticism of Donald Trump around this sort of stuff, and switch to literally anything else. Here is an incompetent thin-skinned ignorant boorish fraudulent omnihypocritical demagogue with no idea how to run a country, whose philosophy of governance basically boils down to “I’m going to win and not lose, details to be filled in later”, and all you can do is repeat, again and again, how he seems popular among weird Internet teenagers who post frog memes. In the middle of an emotionally incontinent reality TV show host getting his hand on the nuclear button, your chief complaint is that in the middle of a few dozen denunciations of the KKK, he once delayed denouncing the KKK for an entire 24 hours before going back to denouncing it again. When a guy who says outright that he won’t respect elections unless he wins them does, somehow, win an election, the headlines are how he once said he didn’t like globalists which means he must be anti-Semitic.


Boy, this guy really has his head up his ass. You pick some real winners. Personally, I'm not concerned about what weird internet teenagers who post frog memes ( a strawman if ever there was one ) write or do. But when the candidate himself actually elevates a white nationalist racist to be a chief advisor, then yes, there is cause for concern. The rest of this guys argument ( and I use the term very loosely ) is just a bad. Where the hell do they find these people to write stuff this goofy ??
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Jon Badolato
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
jonb wrote:
Quote:
Stop centering criticism of Donald Trump around this sort of stuff, and switch to literally anything else. Here is an incompetent thin-skinned ignorant boorish fraudulent omnihypocritical demagogue with no idea how to run a country, whose philosophy of governance basically boils down to “I’m going to win and not lose, details to be filled in later”, and all you can do is repeat, again and again, how he seems popular among weird Internet teenagers who post frog memes. In the middle of an emotionally incontinent reality TV show host getting his hand on the nuclear button, your chief complaint is that in the middle of a few dozen denunciations of the KKK, he once delayed denouncing the KKK for an entire 24 hours before going back to denouncing it again. When a guy who says outright that he won’t respect elections unless he wins them does, somehow, win an election, the headlines are how he once said he didn’t like globalists which means he must be anti-Semitic.


Boy, this guy really has his head up his ass. You pick some real winners. Personally, I'm not concerned about what weird internet teenagers who post frog memes ( a strawman if ever there was one ) write or do. But when the candidate himself actually elevates a white nationalist racist to be a chief advisor, then yes, there is cause for concern. The rest of this guys argument ( and I use the term very loosely ) is just a bad. Where the hell do they find these people to write stuff this goofy ??


The media should keep up the racist, sexist, homophobe accusations through 2020.
http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/14/steve-bannon-accused-of-hav...


LOL ! Nice try.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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ImaSokpupet wrote:


The media should keep up the racist, sexist, homophobe accusations through 2020.
http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/14/steve-bannon-accused-of-hav...


Yeah yeah! That'll get 'em! That'll stop Trump for sure! It has to be working by now!



 
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Whatever, Drew. Trump is making the guy who provided a platform for the alt-right his chief political strategist. That's the bottom line. That's what people are talking about right now. The alt-right are the kings of identity politics. Whaaaa:

"Telling people to celebrate diversity is telling white people to celebrate their dwindling numbers."

Whaaaaa.

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James Myers
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jonb wrote:
Quote:
Stop centering criticism of Donald Trump around this sort of stuff, and switch to literally anything else. Here is an incompetent thin-skinned ignorant boorish fraudulent omnihypocritical demagogue with no idea how to run a country, whose philosophy of governance basically boils down to “I’m going to win and not lose, details to be filled in later”, and all you can do is repeat, again and again, how he seems popular among weird Internet teenagers who post frog memes. In the middle of an emotionally incontinent reality TV show host getting his hand on the nuclear button, your chief complaint is that in the middle of a few dozen denunciations of the KKK, he once delayed denouncing the KKK for an entire 24 hours before going back to denouncing it again. When a guy who says outright that he won’t respect elections unless he wins them does, somehow, win an election, the headlines are how he once said he didn’t like globalists which means he must be anti-Semitic.


Boy, this guy really has his head up his ass. You pick some real winners. Personally, I'm not concerned about what weird internet teenagers who post frog memes ( a strawman if ever there was one ) write or do. But when the candidate himself actually elevates a white nationalist racist to be a chief advisor, then yes, there is cause for concern. The rest of this guys argument ( and I use the term very loosely ) is just a bad. Where the hell do they find these people to write stuff this goofy ??


The Pedro the frog thing isn't a strawman; I heard that on the news.

(Briefly, but I did hear it.)

Edit: Might have been a linked FB article. Still, heard/saw it!
 
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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Drew, had you supported Trump and not actually bought into the media diatribe, your comments on this topic would be thumbworthy.
 
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Drew, had you supported Trump and not actually bought into the media diatribe, your comments on this topic would be thumbworthy.


So ignore my comments. What about the piece itself? Does it matter that I'm the one who posted it?

If you're a typical RSPer then it absolutely matters, because HATE is the fuel that powers their keyboards.

But I didn't think you were a typical RSPer.
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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For what it's worth, I just noticed that Scott Adams was pointing to this piece today as well: "Reprogram an Anti-Trumper with This Article."

He's been writing a bit lately about cognitive dissonance, deprogramming, "breaking the frame" and "de-Hitlerizing your brain."

I've long been fascinated with the ability of pathological liars to persuade people -- even themselves -- that false things are true. This is due mainly to having been victimized by pathological liars in my formative years. It's a form of mind control that people don't really consider. We think of "mind control" like something out of The Manchurian Candidate (the original, not the awful remake), but it's far more subtle than that.





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Jason Reid
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I actually read this piece already. I thought it was pretty insightful on the whole even though I think he really stretched to make some of his later points.

I mean, seriously:

Quote:
He’s at least anti-undocumented immigrant, which is close to being anti-immigrant. And while one can argue that “anti-immigrant” is different than “racist”, I would agree that probably nobody cares that much about British or German immigrants, suggesting that some racial element is involved.


Ok, starting out on some solid ground here. Does he develop further thinking on it? No, because then he would have to end his self-congratulatory "Look at how much smarter I am than the rest of you" spiel. And so he pivots into just making a bunch of unsupported shit up:

Quote:
But I think when Trump voters talk about “globalists”, they’re pointing at how they model this very differently from the people they criticize.

In one model, immigration is a right. You need a very strong reason to take it away from anybody, and such decisions should be carefully inspected to make sure no one is losing the right unfairly. It’s like a store: everyone should be allowed to come in and shop and if a manager refused someone entry then they better have a darned good reason.

In another, immigration is a privilege which members of a community extend at their pleasure to other people whom they think would be a good fit for their community. It’s like a home: you can invite your friends to come live with you, but if someone gives you a vague bad feeling or seems like a good person who’s just incompatible with your current lifestyle, you have the right not to invite them and it would be criminal for them to barge in anyway.

It looks like many Clinton supporters believe in the first model, and many Trump supporters in the second model. I think this ties into deeper differences – Clinton supporters are more atomized and individualist, Trump supporters stronger believers in culture and community.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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Drew1365 wrote:
For what it's worth, I just noticed that Scott Adams was pointing to this piece today as well: "Reprogram an Anti-Trumper with This Article."

He's been writing a bit lately about cognitive dissonance, deprogramming, "breaking the frame" and "de-Hitlerizing your brain."

I've long been fascinated with the ability of pathological liars to persuade people -- even themselves -- that false things are true. This is due mainly to having been victimized by pathological liars in my formative years. It's a form of mind control that people don't really consider. We think of "mind control" like something out of The Manchurian Candidate (the original, not the awful remake), but it's far more subtle than that.


The sum total of internet videos, articles, anecdotes, and real world first hand experiences assimilated into the individual mind still only accounts for a small fraction of reality. As humans, we always have to fill in the blanks with generalizations, theory, and secondhand hearsay to make a complete picture of our world. Who you choose to listen to can make all of the difference in how you end up perceiving the world.

Learning how to separate what you 'definitely know is true' and what you 'might know is true' is a handy skill indeed.

Sorry, what were we talking about?
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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Here is an example that will cause cognitive dissonance:

Quote:
In the 1980s & 1990s Trump donated heavily to charities that focused on the AIDS outbreak. When he floated a third party presidential run in 1999 he went on record saying he would consider adding sexual orientation to the Civil Rights Act. Trump is also believed to be the first private club owner in Palm Beach — in this case Mar-a-Lago — to admit a gay couple. This is not the resume of an LGBT foe.

Fast forward to the 2016 election and Trump’s view of the LGBT community remained unchanged. In June 2015 he forcefully condemned the terror attack at Pulse nightclub, a LGBT club. In condemning this attack, Trump bravely spoke an ugly truth many in the elite dare not speak – radical Islam and the LGBT community do not mix. Trump took this truth to Cleveland when he vowed to protect the LGBT community.

“Only weeks ago, in Orlando, Florida, 49 wonderful Americans were savagely murdered by an Islamic terrorist. This time, the terrorist targeted LGBTQ community,” Trump told the Republican delegates. “As your president, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology.”

During the same convention, Trump asked gay Silicon Valley tycoon Peter Thiel to address the Republican delegates. Thiel accepted then and is now a part of Trump’s transition team. And now Trump is said to be considering Richard Grenell, an openly gay man, to be his ambassador to the U.N.

Trump, therefore, does not fit the LGBT Left narrative about Republican politicians. This narrative holds that since the Moral Majority of the 1980s the entire Republican Party is connected to the bromance of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

The shelf-life of this logic has now expired with the Christian Right’s influence pertaining to same-sex marriage shrinking in GOP circles and the election of Trump’s, the first post-culture war GOP president.

“It’s irrelevant because it was already settled. It’s law. It was settled in the Supreme Court. I mean it’s done,” Trump told Lesley Stahl when the CBS reporter asked the president-elect whether he supported marriage equality.

Trump doubled down and suggested he would not appoint judges that would seek to overturn the ruling. “It’s done. It-- you have-- these cases have gone to the Supreme Court. They’ve been settled. And, I’m fine with that.”

“I’m fine with that” surely does not fit the talking points being promulgated by the LGBT Left. Here was the president-elect, a man who has long been compared to Hitler by progressives, saying he was fine with marriage equality. What did the LGBT community have to fear if their right to marriage was safe?
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James Myers
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Drew1365 wrote:
Here is an example that will cause cognitive dissonance:

Quote:
In the 1980s & 1990s Trump donated heavily to charities that focused on the AIDS outbreak. When he floated a third party presidential run in 1999 he went on record saying he would consider adding sexual orientation to the Civil Rights Act. Trump is also believed to be the first private club owner in Palm Beach — in this case Mar-a-Lago — to admit a gay couple. This is not the resume of an LGBT foe.

Fast forward to the 2016 election and Trump’s view of the LGBT community remained unchanged. In June 2015 he forcefully condemned the terror attack at Pulse nightclub, a LGBT club. In condemning this attack, Trump bravely spoke an ugly truth many in the elite dare not speak – radical Islam and the LGBT community do not mix. Trump took this truth to Cleveland when he vowed to protect the LGBT community.

“Only weeks ago, in Orlando, Florida, 49 wonderful Americans were savagely murdered by an Islamic terrorist. This time, the terrorist targeted LGBTQ community,” Trump told the Republican delegates. “As your president, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology.”

During the same convention, Trump asked gay Silicon Valley tycoon Peter Thiel to address the Republican delegates. Thiel accepted then and is now a part of Trump’s transition team. And now Trump is said to be considering Richard Grenell, an openly gay man, to be his ambassador to the U.N.

Trump, therefore, does not fit the LGBT Left narrative about Republican politicians. This narrative holds that since the Moral Majority of the 1980s the entire Republican Party is connected to the bromance of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

The shelf-life of this logic has now expired with the Christian Right’s influence pertaining to same-sex marriage shrinking in GOP circles and the election of Trump’s, the first post-culture war GOP president.

“It’s irrelevant because it was already settled. It’s law. It was settled in the Supreme Court. I mean it’s done,” Trump told Lesley Stahl when the CBS reporter asked the president-elect whether he supported marriage equality.

Trump doubled down and suggested he would not appoint judges that would seek to overturn the ruling. “It’s done. It-- you have-- these cases have gone to the Supreme Court. They’ve been settled. And, I’m fine with that.”

“I’m fine with that” surely does not fit the talking points being promulgated by the LGBT Left. Here was the president-elect, a man who has long been compared to Hitler by progressives, saying he was fine with marriage equality. What did the LGBT community have to fear if their right to marriage was safe?


Mike Pence.

(Yes, he had to nominate him to get conservatives onto his side. But he did it.)

FADA: http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/09/donald-trump-pledges-sign...

Trump contradicts himself on this. I absolutely prefer that to someone like Pence who is pretty straightforward about his opposition to LGBTQ rights.
 
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Jason Reid
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Drew1365 wrote:
Here is an example that will cause cognitive dissonance:

Quote:
Trump doubled down and suggested he would not appoint judges that would seek to overturn the ruling. “It’s done. It-- you have-- these cases have gone to the Supreme Court. They’ve been settled. And, I’m fine with that.”


Trump himself has been quite good on LGBT rights. I remember him decrying the Carolina bathroom law when it was an issue during the primary.

But the above quote does not accurately represent what he's said. He may not seek judges who would overturn the ruling. But he absolutely would "appoint judges who seek to overturn the ruling" if they met his other criteria.
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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Terwox wrote:


This is how you get RFRA laws called "anti-gay" by people who ought to know better.

Please reread the history of RFRA, once fully endorsed by Democrats, opposed by Republicans, and signed into law by Bill Clinton.

That, of course, is another thread, and we've had many on it.

But you have to allow yourself to consider the possibility that the people crying wolf are wrong. Again.
 
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Burke Martin
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Drew1365 wrote:
Here is an example that will cause cognitive dissonance:

Quote:
In the 1980s & 1990s Trump donated heavily to charities that focused on the AIDS outbreak. When he floated a third party presidential run in 1999 he went on record saying he would consider adding sexual orientation to the Civil Rights Act. Trump is also believed to be the first private club owner in Palm Beach — in this case Mar-a-Lago — to admit a gay couple. This is not the resume of an LGBT foe.

Fast forward to the 2016 election and Trump’s view of the LGBT community remained unchanged. In June 2015 he forcefully condemned the terror attack at Pulse nightclub, a LGBT club. In condemning this attack, Trump bravely spoke an ugly truth many in the elite dare not speak – radical Islam and the LGBT community do not mix. Trump took this truth to Cleveland when he vowed to protect the LGBT community.

“Only weeks ago, in Orlando, Florida, 49 wonderful Americans were savagely murdered by an Islamic terrorist. This time, the terrorist targeted LGBTQ community,” Trump told the Republican delegates. “As your president, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology.”

During the same convention, Trump asked gay Silicon Valley tycoon Peter Thiel to address the Republican delegates. Thiel accepted then and is now a part of Trump’s transition team. And now Trump is said to be considering Richard Grenell, an openly gay man, to be his ambassador to the U.N.

Trump, therefore, does not fit the LGBT Left narrative about Republican politicians. This narrative holds that since the Moral Majority of the 1980s the entire Republican Party is connected to the bromance of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.

The shelf-life of this logic has now expired with the Christian Right’s influence pertaining to same-sex marriage shrinking in GOP circles and the election of Trump’s, the first post-culture war GOP president.

“It’s irrelevant because it was already settled. It’s law. It was settled in the Supreme Court. I mean it’s done,” Trump told Lesley Stahl when the CBS reporter asked the president-elect whether he supported marriage equality.

Trump doubled down and suggested he would not appoint judges that would seek to overturn the ruling. “It’s done. It-- you have-- these cases have gone to the Supreme Court. They’ve been settled. And, I’m fine with that.”

“I’m fine with that” surely does not fit the talking points being promulgated by the LGBT Left. Here was the president-elect, a man who has long been compared to Hitler by progressives, saying he was fine with marriage equality. What did the LGBT community have to fear if their right to marriage was safe?


Trump has also praised the Clintons.
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casey r lowe
United States
butte
Montana
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is drew seriously lecturing about cognitive dissonance in this thread - wow
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Drew
United States
North Dakota
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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brkmrtn wrote:
Trump has also praised the Clintons.


Yes, I'm well aware of that.

Trump will break your brain.
 
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Aric Ashgrove
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Independence
Missouri
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My favorite boardgames are tactical level wargames, action/dexterity, adventure/story telling, and civilization/4x style!
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@ Drew1365: I am new to RSP here still, but I have seen a few single posts of yours in response to others but fewer that you create. I just want to say good job on presentation and for not succumbing the the playground of hubris that hurt intellectual arguments. Great job with this one!
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casey r lowe
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Ashgrove wrote:
@ Drew1365: I am new to RSP here still, but I have seen a few single posts of yours in response to others but fewer that you create. I just want to say good job on presentation and for not succumbing the the playground of hubris that hurt intellectual arguments. Great job with this one!

he has about 75% of rsp plonked - drew is very meticulous about his safe spaces
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
United States
North Pole
Alaska
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Drew1365 wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Drew, had you supported Trump and not actually bought into the media diatribe, your comments on this topic would be thumbworthy.


So ignore my comments. What about the piece itself? Does it matter that I'm the one who posted it?

If you're a typical RSPer then it absolutely matters, because HATE is the fuel that powers their keyboards.

But I didn't think you were a typical RSPer.


No thumb. But I'll give a nickel.

Don't get excited.

It's just today's interest off my glorious winnings.
 
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Les Marshall
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Woodinville
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Drew still hasn't figured out that "numbers" don't automatically equate with relevant numbers. Likewise, racist rhetoric isn't necessarily equivalent to all ethnicities nor do those members of ethnic groups consider this to be the only factor influencing their vote.

For example, members of the Latino group might fear Trumps rhetoric while embracing the notion of overturning Roe v Wade as more important. Some members of the African American community might think opposing gay marriage is more important than some slightly more blatant racial animus. Members of many groups might actually believe that the implicit threat to their civil liberties is more nebulous than the slender reed of increased prosperity under some form of trade protectionism that most of them weren't born under.

In short, the fact that members of ethnic or religious groups voted for Trump isn't any sort of proof about whether or not his rhetoric or policies may be racist in some sense. All it means is that the voters priorities didn't rank that rhetoric more significantly.
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