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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: Is anyone else impressed by the volume of balanced content? rss

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Neomaxim Noefaith
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As a hardcore miniatures war-gamer, I frequently watch my games take YEARS to add a wealth of diverse, fun, and (hopefully) balanced units to a game, and yet this Kickstarter, upon announcing an expansion add-on always has complete stats/abilities ready to show, highlighting both the breadth and depth of content available.

Right now going "all in" is getting quite pricey, but at the same times I am awed by the "volume" of gameplay $300-ish can buy you here.

Likewise, as a miniatures game designer, I can attest to how soul-crushing play-testing, and balance can often be. I am proud when a month of hardcore number crunching and testing might yield a handful of sincerely balanced scenarios or units, whereas this game out of the gates will have dozens, and dozens of the later.

All things aside... i'm just genuinely impressed and hope the game thrives and finds a player-base (which is the real test in the miniatures world). If so, they'll have funded years of cool retail releases, and a volume of content which could see a real competitive scene develop.
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Jason Ichimaru
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I have been wondering about the balance of this game. Do you mind if you could go on to explain why you think this game is so balanced. I feel like this is one of the factors that is giving me doubts about this game. I really want to like this but it's pretty hard to decipher how fun and balanced this game will be with the sheer amount of variables involved.
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Mike Kraus
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We're most/all of these models being added to the KS part of the original game? If so, that would speak to the balance as they were played with for years and I would guess, tweaked where necessary.
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Jason Ichimaru
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Ya, I could see that. I was thinking that if this game is a reboot of an older game that wasn't as highly rated before and there were some tweaks that were made in this rendition, how does this differ so much that it warrants a 2.5 point jump. I don't want to seem like a downer, but it's interesting that miniatures and minor tweaks could make a game from good to great. I very may well believe that it can both thematically and mechanically, but I can't figure it out. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.
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Chuck Marks
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jichimaru wrote:
Ya, I could see that. I was thinking that if this game is a reboot of an older game that wasn't as highly rated before and there were some tweaks that were made in this rendition, how does this differ so much that it warrants a 2.5 point jump. I don't want to seem like a downer, but it's interesting that miniatures and minor tweaks could make a game from good to great. I very may well believe that it can both thematically and mechanically, but I can't figure it out. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.


I think the hype has just as much to do with the tweaks to gameplay as it does because of the minis.

The vast amount of units available along with their specials and traits make for both a very strategic and tactical game.

This version offers a drafting system not seen in games like this. The drafting along with the near endless possibilities of unit combos, creates a tactical sudo-ccg deck building like experience, a game within a game.

The dice combat is fascinating and mitigates the luck swing seen in many games that use dice.

I appreciate the simple ruleset yet deep gameplay. I sometimes tire of spending 30-45 mins of rules explanations before playing a game. I feel like I could teach this game in 10 mins but players will still be figuring out strategies 50 games later.

These are just a few things that make this game stand out for me. I see this game getting played for years and years to come.
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Gustavo Sanchez
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GeneralDelivery wrote:
jichimaru wrote:
Ya, I could see that. I was thinking that if this game is a reboot of an older game that wasn't as highly rated before and there were some tweaks that were made in this rendition, how does this differ so much that it warrants a 2.5 point jump. I don't want to seem like a downer, but it's interesting that miniatures and minor tweaks could make a game from good to great. I very may well believe that it can both thematically and mechanically, but I can't figure it out. Maybe someone can shed some light on this.


I think the hype has just as much to do with the tweaks to gameplay as it does because of the minis.

The vast amount of units available along with their specials and traits make for both a very strategic and tactical game.

This version offers a drafting system not seen in games like this. The drafting along with the near endless possibilities of unit combos, creates a tactical sudo-ccg deck building like experience, a game within a game.

The dice combat is fascinating and mitigates the luck swing seen in many games that use dice.

I appreciate the simple ruleset yet deep gameplay. I sometimes tire of spending 30-45 mins of rules explanations before playing a game. I feel like I could teach this game in 10 mins but players will still be figuring out strategies 50 games later.

These are just a few things that make this game stand out for me. I see this game getting played for years and years to come.


This pretty much sums it up for me. The combo of drafting, unit variety, and the dice mechanic make for a very enticing game experience.
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Jason Ichimaru
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Thanks Gen.D. That makes a bit more sense. I think it's interesting how games can be possibly improved so much with small(or big?) changes. I feel a lot better about buying add ons now.
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Emivaldo Sousa
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I think balance is overrated .

Most games do not have to be perfectly balanced, they just have to be balanced enough to be fun.

In the case of Mythic Battles: the draft system, the experience with the older game and the dice mechanism that mitigates some bad luck all combine to make sure that the game is balanced enough.

But I am quite sure down the road we will see some scenario exploits, discussion about some "unstoppable combos" and maybe the odd house rule or adjustment of unit price. And, of course, that one unit that nobody drafts soblue . I think this is almost unavoidable in a game of this scope, specially with so much content being launched at once.

Drafting and negotiation are design "clutches" (more like assets, really) that are very handy to expand what you can do in terms of powers and strong interactions. As long as all players have a chance to be powerful or one player is never stronger than other two combined, you can do a lot and the game will still feel balanced.
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Ben Clapperton
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I can speak to the core box as I've played that several times and found it offered a lot of depth and replayability, and haven't found any units to be over or under-powered. Balance ideally should be on a fairly narrow bell curve, as that's what allows for list building and a meta. If everything was perfectly balanced then you couldn't have that as everything is as useful as everything else in any combination against everything else in any combination. There's no art to the draft and you're essentially playing chess at that point.*

*And yes, I know white has an advantage over black from going first.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Impressed by the sheer volume: YES!!! cool

I think calling "balanced" is a bit premature. I don't think I have seen any game with so much choices that doesn't favour some units or combinations. I dare to say that the healer units will be rather popular, for instance.

One year down the road we will see how balanced the game really is.

Not sure how extensively all the extra units (beyond the core box) are playtested (afer all: including the add-ons we will have more than thrice the content with LOTS of special powers), of course. And if Monolith is going to test more after the KS closes, but I wouldn't be surprised if some units will have their stats changed between now and december 2017.
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Daniel Guinoza
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Teowulff wrote:
I think calling "balanced" is a bit premature. I don't think I have seen any game with so much choices that doesn't favour some units or combinations. I dare to say that the healer units will be rather popular, for instance.

One year down the road we will see how balanced the game really is.

Not sure how extensively all the extra units (beyond the core box) are playtested (afer all: including the add-ons we will have more than thrice the content with LOTS of special powers), of course. And if Monolith is going to test more after the KS closes, but I wouldn't be surprised if some units will have their stats changed between now and december 2017.


Choices eventually end up shifting. The newbie will go for raw monsters, and the expert, as they say in the videos, will go for Athena combo, or other combos that will be eventually discovered. As for healers, they intentionally don't make them so that the game doesn't last forever. With counter drafting in mind, some OP combos may be stopped. However, I'm not a fan of counter drafting. I'd prefer each one to just make a strong army.

One year, or heck, 4 years, some changes may be needed. I would prefer a banlist rather than rotation by blocks or monthly rotations. I think with Conan they had an idea of the backing they would receive. They even went ahead and invested a lot to have the game in this state already even before backing began. I think they may have tested at the very least the first 1M stretch goals, and they may postpone printing the dashboards until the last moment so they have even more time to playtest whatever they haven't already.
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Neomaxim Noefaith
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To answer an early question... the designer in me predicts a strong amount of balance in part due to the obvious "budgeting" of the units shown.

Here's the thing... it isn't sexy, but ultimately a lot of design ends up being math, and demonstrating areas where one keenly understands things like probability.

Here, the "punch up a weigh class" way in which 5+s are re-rolled and added together, means any unit COULD theoretically beat any other with increasingly poor odds. But this marries with the spending a die, to add +1 to a different one, potentially turning it into a 5+ and thus earning that add-on re-roll, which means dice are both a resource and a probability tool. Really clever interplay.

Beyond that, the units obviously have a budget so far. At a glance, committing to a 2-5(ish) scale of point costs, means the designer can roughly budget how strong a 2 point (for example) model can be. This means, broadly it already either has a pool of points with which to be a generalist, or possibly the upper limit it can have in a given stat if it specializes. From there, special abilities just serve as ways of making a uniquely playing unit, and can have its value eye-balled.

Mind you, nothing is perfectly balanced, and every year, say X-wing, has its meta shake out as people math-out objectively strong combos... but the gulf between amazing and terrible options is much smaller than in many games (such as my beloved 40k where a unit can be unbelievably powerful, or literally useless). This game's drafting mechanic will even mitigate these smaller imbalances, AND turn it into a meaningful player decision no less (a holy grail for good designers).

All in all, i'm predicting, and napkin mathing a game which does to my eyes, seem quite balanced right out of the gates.
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Willem Verheij
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I think that with all these units, that players will be crafting strategies around specific units that others might neglect, looking for a good combo.

Personally I will likely try most units, aside from probably a few I just don't like the look of and thats not many. I don't like the hell hounds for example.

I imagine that I'd probably like the heroes the most.. I predict that my armies would probably be a beast, two heroes and whatever points left spend on troops.

I'm wondering though how well an "unbalanced" team would play though, with having only heroes, only monsters or only troops.

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Benoit VOGT
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Newtruthneomaxim wrote:
As a hardcore miniatures war-gamer, I frequently watch my games take YEARS to add a wealth of diverse, fun, and (hopefully) balanced units to a game, and yet this Kickstarter, upon announcing an expansion add-on always has complete stats/abilities ready to show, highlighting both the breadth and depth of content available.

Right now going "all in" is getting quite pricey, but at the same times I am awed by the "volume" of gameplay $300-ish can buy you here.

Likewise, as a miniatures game designer, I can attest to how soul-crushing play-testing, and balance can often be. I am proud when a month of hardcore number crunching and testing might yield a handful of sincerely balanced scenarios or units, whereas this game out of the gates will have dozens, and dozens of the later.

All things aside... i'm just genuinely impressed and hope the game thrives and finds a player-base (which is the real test in the miniatures world). If so, they'll have funded years of cool retail releases, and a volume of content which could see a real competitive scene develop.



And there is more to come.
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Benoit VOGT
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jichimaru wrote:
I have been wondering about the balance of this game. Do you mind if you could go on to explain why you think this game is so balanced. I feel like this is one of the factors that is giving me doubts about this game. I really want to like this but it's pretty hard to decipher how fun and balanced this game will be with the sheer amount of variables involved.


First Players start drafting Units, and drafting is a way to balance a game. Second, we heavily demoed the game publicly the game with more than 800 games and collected feedbacks. We are working since 18 months on this game what gave us a lot of time to balance everything.

Also we have the experience of the first game. We collected feedbacks on these for 4 years.
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Elias Charalambides
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Any sense how you will go forward if gamers discover "game-breaking"
combos?

A digital game of this type has the ability to update the content and everyone is able to download it . Like hearthstone or the like. But when its a physical game what do you do? Not sure what Magic the gathering does as I stopped playing it ages ago but I imagine it can be quite a mess.
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Thaddeus MacTaggart
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Kyklos wrote:
Any sense how you will go forward if gamers discover "game-breaking"
combos?

I guess the add-ons and SGs aren't as thorougly tested as the core box content - but we still have some time to try them out (with standees) in the meantime once we have the beta rulebook.
Jake said that there may be some adjustments concerning the dashboards between now and december 2017 in case we find some loopholes.
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Willem Verheij
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As far as I can tell there are counters for everything, you might just need the right unit for it.

Benefit of having lots of extra options to choose from is that you can always find an answer to whatever the other player(s) recruit.

So if anything, I think that the more content you have for this game, the less chance there is of there being one unit that kills the fun.

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Jason Thompson
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Kyklos wrote:
Any sense how you will go forward if gamers discover "game-breaking"
combos?

A digital game of this type has the ability to update the content and everyone is able to download it . Like hearthstone or the like. But when its a physical game what do you do? Not sure what Magic the gathering does as I stopped playing it ages ago but I imagine it can be quite a mess.


I don't play Magic, but most CCGs and the like fix any balance issues with future releases. Example: Dice Masters had a meta that was overrun by one or two cards from their first set. Their next sets had cards that negated that strategy.
 
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