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Subject: Finally, Something New in the Last 125 Years rss

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James D. Williams
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The EM Drive:
However...

“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”
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George Brinton wrote:
“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”


As I understand it, nobody in the physics community believes this result. The result violates something really, really, fundamental. The paper has various warning signs in it, and there's been no good systematic look for other explanations.

(For this who think "conservation of momentum" doesn't sound that basic, it's equivalent to that the laws of physics don't change with position. And it's part of every piece of basic theory. It's been upheld countless times to high precision - much higher than this experiment.)
 
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jeremy cobert
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http://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/emdrive-news-rumors/
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Chris
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For more information for those who might not understand the OP since he jumped into the middle of the story with no explaination:

Quote:
SCIENCE
First Look

A new study from NASA’s Eagleworks Laboratories has survived peer review – and that may bring an air of legitimacy to the fringe research.
By Joseph Dussault, Staff NOVEMBER 21, 2016
Save for later
Dmitri Lovetsky/APView CaptionAbout video adsView Caption
For several years, a small cohort of NASA researchers have been working on a rocket propulsion system that could someday take astronauts to Mars without using any fuel.

There’s just one problem: Their device appears to violate the laws of physics.


http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2016/1121/NASA-s-EmDrive-Sc...

Pardon linking the CSM but it seemed to break it down pretty straight forward so I used it.

Quote:
The paper, which was authored by NASA astrophysicists Harold “Sonny” White and Paul March, was published Thursday in the Journal of Propulsion and Power. It describes a closed copper chamber that, when loaded with microwaves, produces thrust in defiance of scientific explanation. The peer review doesn’t confirm that result – only that the researchers’ methodology was sound.


So far the theory hasn't been debunked and I look forward to more research on this.
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Chris Binkowski
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Dearlove wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”


As I understand it, nobody in the physics community believes this result. The result violates something really, really, fundamental. The paper has various warning signs in it, and there's been no good systematic look for other explanations.

(For this who think "conservation of momentum" doesn't sound that basic, it's equivalent to that the laws of physics don't change with position. And it's part of every piece of basic theory. It's been upheld countless times to high precision - much higher than this experiment.)


Yeah but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_...

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2133814/So-DO...

There are strange things afoot in the realm of physics; things unknown and bewildering.
 
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Chengkai Yang
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Eh, I thought they made more advances on why the thing sort of works. Last I read it was sorta like the Planet Express dark matter reactor in that it might be pushing off a sort of quantum layer. It's sort of pushing the universe around it versus propelling it's self was what I got out of that.

http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impossible-em-drive-is-about...

Not sure how reliable this source is though.
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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To be fair, people who reject it out of hand tend to embrace the notion humans can affect weather as solid science.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Sarxis wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”


As I understand it, nobody in the physics community believes this result. The result violates something really, really, fundamental. The paper has various warning signs in it, and there's been no good systematic look for other explanations.

(For this who think "conservation of momentum" doesn't sound that basic, it's equivalent to that the laws of physics don't change with position. And it's part of every piece of basic theory. It's been upheld countless times to high precision - much higher than this experiment.)


Yeah but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_...

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2133814/So-DO...

There are strange things afoot in the realm of physics; things unknown and bewildering.


Neither of those is relevant, nor as fundamental. It's really impossible to over-emphasise how fundamental the basic conservation laws, or more importantly the symmetries they correspond to, are. Overthrowing them needs a lot more than some experiments against which serious criticisms have been made by people with a clue.
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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draxx01 wrote:
Eh, I thought they made more advances on why the thing sort of works. Last I read it was sorta like the Planet Express dark matter reactor in that it might be pushing off a sort of quantum layer. It's sort of pushing the universe around it versus propelling it's self was what I got out of that.

http://www.sciencealert.com/the-impossible-em-drive-is-about...

Not sure how reliable this source is though.


Looks like something a bit credulous, but basically attempting sound reporting. And this is real work that deserves reporting. But the "explanation" above is mumbo-jumbo.

These things come up from time to time. I recall when it was Braithwaite and gyros. The effects are small, the measurements show variations that are dubious, and they don't bring in real serious physicists to look at it from the point of view of "what hasn't been accounted for?". Because they want it to be true. But it stands against a pile of theory and evidence that's hard to comprehend how big it is. And every previous time, and one can confidently predict this time, it will go away. Note I'm saying "it will go away" not "you can ignore it". That's a prediction, not established fact.
 
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Robert Wesley
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Koldfoot wrote:
To be fair, people who reject it out of hand tend to embrace the notion humans can affect weather as solid science.
That's the 'power' of "prayer" with them!
 
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James D. Williams
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In a knutschell:
When the dielectric of a capacitor is submitted to a varying electric power (charge or discharge), Woodward's hypothesis predicts[24] a transient mass fluctuation arises according to the transient mass equation.
 
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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George Brinton wrote:
In a knutschell:
When the dielectric of a capacitor is submitted to a varying electric power (charge or discharge), Woodward's hypothesis predicts[24] a transient mass fluctuation arises according to the transient mass equation.


Yeah. That and... Mythbusters... and stuff.
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Leo Zappa
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Interesting that Harold White is involved. He's also the guy at NASA working on warp drive. Based on an extension of the work done by Alcubierre, White's research could someday lead to a real warp drive system (though it probably won't).

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/201100...
 
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build one , build a small ship out of loego or something - shove it out the air lock on the ISS aimed at the moon if it goes any further than what it should do by self canabilisation it works. S

Somebody can get a grant to find out the loop hole in the physics later.
 
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Chris Binkowski
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Dearlove wrote:
Sarxis wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”


As I understand it, nobody in the physics community believes this result. The result violates something really, really, fundamental. The paper has various warning signs in it, and there's been no good systematic look for other explanations.

(For this who think "conservation of momentum" doesn't sound that basic, it's equivalent to that the laws of physics don't change with position. And it's part of every piece of basic theory. It's been upheld countless times to high precision - much higher than this experiment.)


Yeah but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_...

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2133814/So-DO...

There are strange things afoot in the realm of physics; things unknown and bewildering.


Neither of those is relevant, nor as fundamental. It's really impossible to over-emphasise how fundamental the basic conservation laws, or more importantly the symmetries they correspond to, are. Overthrowing them needs a lot more than some experiments against which serious criticisms have been made by people with a clue.



You know what you sound like? An old crotchety scientist clinging to his theories backlashing against a young thinker who is going outside the norms.

Yeah, because THAT'S how progress is made.

 
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Robert Stuart
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I don't believe it.

Try sailing a boat on a windless day by blowing into the sail.
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James D. Williams
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George Brinton wrote:
In a knutschell:
When the dielectric of a capacitor is submitted to a varying electric power (charge or discharge), Woodward's hypothesis predicts[24] a transient mass fluctuation arises according to the transient mass equation.


My interpretation, which is voodoo science:
If the mass of part of the drive increases there will be an acceleration toward the center of mass [of the Universe, or toward whatever direction the greatest amount of gravity waves are coming from.
Presumably, the acceleration would therefore be in only one absolute direction. Say, "always toward the constellation Canopus".
However, it is a "free-fuel cost" acceleration.
In orbit around the Sun, there would be times when such a "free" single direction vector increase would be useful.

(for the unenlightened, Jupiter may "tug"/accelerate a probe into a different direction along that planet's path, the planet continues its 'circle' around the Sun, but the probe continues in a 'straight' line. Extended, the 'straight' line leads further out into the Solar System.
that is, a probe approaches Jupiter 'directly' at 6mps), gets dragged by Jupiter's moving gravity-well into Jupiter's direction of movement and is accelerated to 12 mps...moving at a tangent to Jupiter's 'circular' orbit.)
 
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Chris Binkowski
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bob_santafe wrote:
I don't believe it.

Try sailing a boat on a windless day by blowing into the sail.


Actually...

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Robert Stuart
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Sarxis wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
I don't believe it.

Try sailing a boat on a windless day by blowing into the sail.


Actually...



Good -- we're getting somewhere. As one of the individuals says, "we'd get more thrust by turning the fan around and blowing it backwards". The boat gets some thrust because the air reflects off the sail and escapes, with net momentum, from the 'system' (boat + fan + sail).

Now, try this in a completely enclosed system, so that no air is drawn in from the outside, and no air can escape from the boat.
 
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Robert Stuart
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George Brinton wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
In a knutschell:
When the dielectric of a capacitor is submitted to a varying electric power (charge or discharge), Woodward's hypothesis predicts[24] a transient mass fluctuation arises according to the transient mass equation.


My interpretation, which is voodoo science:
If the mass of part of the drive increases there will be an acceleration toward the center of mass [of the Universe, or toward whatever direction the greatest amount of gravity waves are coming from.

The mass can increase only if mass is being drawn in from outside. Keep in mind that mass is just a particular form of energy. So in any conversion between 'mass' and 'energy' there is no change in mass. (As an example, if you hammer a piece of steel it will heat up, and hence its mass will increase -- although it would be way too small to measure. Where did the increase of mass come from? From the energy you imparted by hammering the steel.)

George Brinton wrote:
(for the unenlightened, Jupiter may "tug"/accelerate a probe into a different direction along that planet's path, the planet continues its 'circle' around the Sun, but the probe continues in a 'straight' line. Extended, the 'straight' line leads further out into the Solar System.
that is, a probe approaches Jupiter 'directly' at 6mps), gets dragged by Jupiter's moving gravity-well into Jupiter's direction of movement and is accelerated to 12 mps...moving at a tangent to Jupiter's 'circular' orbit.)

This is the well-known 'slingshot effect' which has been utilized to give satellites extra momentum by having them whip around an orbiting planet. Keep in mind, however, that even as the satellite gains energy and momentum, in this example, Jupiter loses energy and momentum. Jupiter's orbit is changed ever so slightly in the encounter.
 
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Robert Stuart
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George Brinton wrote:
In a knutschell:
When the dielectric of a capacitor is submitted to a varying electric power (charge or discharge), Woodward's hypothesis predicts[24] a transient mass fluctuation arises according to the transient mass equation.


It doesn't really matter what happens. If the system is closed -- no mass or energy coming in, and no mass or energy going out -- the energy and momentum of the system will remain constant. [I'm speaking colloquially, of course: what classical physics has called 'mass' and 'energy' are different manifestations of the same thing.]
 
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Robert Stuart
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Sarxis wrote:
Dearlove wrote:
George Brinton wrote:
“Absent a convincing physical explanation that doesn't fly in the face of well-known principles of physics, you should hold in abeyance any judgment as to whether or not [the NASA results are] real,” said Woodward. “This stuff is much harder to do and get right than almost anybody who has not actually been in the trenches doing it really appreciates. The odds against anything being real in this business are very high.”


As I understand it, nobody in the physics community believes this result. The result violates something really, really, fundamental. The paper has various warning signs in it, and there's been no good systematic look for other explanations.

(For this who think "conservation of momentum" doesn't sound that basic, it's equivalent to that the laws of physics don't change with position. And it's part of every piece of basic theory. It's been upheld countless times to high precision - much higher than this experiment.)


Yeah but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_expansion_of_the_...

and

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2133814/So-DO...

There are strange things afoot in the realm of physics; things unknown and bewildering.


I'll be the first to admit that you do have a point here. As for your second source: the absence of 'missing mass' is something I've suspected for a long time, but that has nothing to do with violating the fundamental principles of conservation.

Regarding your first reference, such eminent people as Sean Carroll and John Baez have claimed that the presence of a cosmological constant means that energy is not conserved in the universe. Carroll makes the claim because, according to him, the gravitational field contains no energy. It contains no energy because, he says correctly, there has to date been no frame-invariant way to characterize gravitational energy.

They're wrong. The gravitational field has energy. That energy is negative. As the universe expands, resulting in an increase in positive energy due to particle acceleration and an increase in the positive energy due to the expansion of space, so also does the negative energy of the gravitational field increase (negatively), so that the total energy of the universe remains constant.

How do we actually show that they're wrong? I'm reminded of a story about David Hilbert. He was lecturing one day, and in going from one step to the next, said, "And so obviously...". At that point a student, bolder than the rest, said, "Excuse me, Professor, but it doesn't seem obvious to me." Hilbert stared at the board for a little while, paced back and forth, and then left the classroom. He came back some minutes later, picked up the chalk, said, "Yes, it's obvious." -- and went back lecturing!

So, how do we actually show that they're wrong? I'm not really such a great cracker-jack physicist, by any means, but I do have some ability, and perhaps this is something I'll work on over the next few years.

As for the EMdrive: to expect that it somehow feeds off the cosmological constant or the false vacuum, creating negative gravitational energy as it generates positive kinetic energy, or that it creates a white hole which draws energy into the universe through the universe's boundary (which may be happening on the cosmological scale), or that it draws on a quantum fluctuation of the vacuum -- the size is far too intermediate between the cosmological and the quantum scales, and the energies far too low, for that to happen.
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Christopher Dearlove
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Sarxis wrote:
You know what you sound like? An old crotchety scientist clinging to his theories backlashing against a young thinker who is going outside the norms.


And that's one again failing to understand how fundamental the conservation/symmetry laws are. And how shaky this evidence is compared to that.

In fact historically conservation laws been used by the young thinkers. The neutrino, for example, was hypothesised in order to rescue conservation laws that appeared to be being violated.

Experimental error is overwhelmingly the most likely explanation here. And better people than I have explained why the pattern of results seen are consistent with that. So much so it's the only really sensible avenue to explore. However what that has in common with the people who want to believe this is more experiments.
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I've seen nothing technical about this but thrust has to come from somewhere. I'd like to see a good thorough technical discussion before reaching conclusions but the presentation is what one expects from a crackpot which is a bit off-putting.
 
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