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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Items mentioning Defense rss

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Michael NA
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On items who mention Defense, do they only mean the one you use to defend health loss og do they mean as in defending against any attack?

For ease of reference it can, among other places, be found on
"Icon of Resistance"
Once per, turn, you may re-roll a single failed Defense roll.


It makes quite a difference for the usefulness of those items with this wording if you can reroll a die on a willpower save.

Argument for allowing Willpower re-roll:
You are "defending" against a horror hit

Arguments against:
The stat used to prevent Health loss is named Defense.
 
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Eric Harman
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"Defense" is a specific game term that refers to stopping health damage.
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Klutz
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A Defense roll is a roll where you're trying to hit your Defense value.

A Willpower save is not a Defense roll.
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Neil Edmonds
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The games is a little lose with terminology. One of my friends gets twitchy when he reads "wounds ignoring defense" because if something's called a wound, it's already gotten past defense:

1.) Defense is used to ignore hits.
2.) Hits inflict damage, some of which can be ignored by armor. You have to roll against each point of damage inflicted; so a hit that does 3 damage would require 3 armor rolls.
3.) Any damage not protected by the armor/blessings/etc, then becomes a wound. So "wounds ignoring defense" is redundant.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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Aren't wounds that ignore defense, automatic hits? If it's ignoring defense, you can't use your defense. I always thought that's what they were saying by using that term, they are just letting you know the wound is non-defensible.
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Matteo Kintarouji
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rccoll wrote:
Aren't wounds that ignore defense, automatic hits? If it's ignoring defense, you can't use your defense. I always thought that's what they were saying by using that term, they are just letting you know the wound is non-defensible.

This is how I've played it so far.
 
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J M
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rccoll wrote:
Aren't wounds that ignore defense, automatic hits? If it's ignoring defense, you can't use your defense. I always thought that's what they were saying by using that term, they are just letting you know the wound is non-defensible.


An automatic hit is one that didn't have to roll to hit. And a hit might be a wound, or it might be six wounds. Some items also allow you to break the rule on no defense damage (Void Hood, I think).

It would have been nice if they'd established a kind of "data dictionary" of terms before they wrote the rules, and stuck with it.
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Eric Harman
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This brings up a side question: are there items that grant re-rolls to willpower saves?
 
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Klutz
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Cooperton wrote:
This brings up a side question: are there items that grant re-rolls to willpower saves?


Grit?
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Quote:
Aren't wounds that ignore defense, automatic hits? If it's ignoring defense, you can't use your defense. I always thought that's what they were saying by using that term, they are just letting you know the wound is non-defensible.


Yes, but defense isn't armor or one of the auras from the Church. So you wouldn't make a defense roll to avoid all the damage in one shot (eg - a single die roll negates all the damage), but you'd still get to use your armor or auras against each point of damage - with a failed roll translating into a wound. This becomes especially interesting with some of the Town Events or Mine Event cards. Could I use my armor against the demonic sickness event, maybe because my armor means I have less exposed skin surface area? I don't know, but the rules as written would imply I could.

The game is very specific about what defense means for heroes, and then stupidly uses the same word for monsters but give it a different meaning.
 
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Adria D
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Cooperton wrote:
This brings up a side question: are there items that grant re-rolls to willpower saves?

I think so. I can't recall where I saw it off-hand, but I seem to recall seeing it somewhere. I know there are hero abilities that give re-rolls.
 
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Jee Fu
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It's also worth mentioning that mechanics which deal straight wounds, ignoring Defense, are only considered to be doing implied Hits for the purposes of XP. Things that trigger on Hit, or add damage to Hits, or whatever don't affect these things.

However, this gets murky once you add in things that "always give you Defense Rolls, even against things that ignore Defense" because at that point it's really hard to argue that the incoming damage is not a Hit in every conceivable way.

- Jee
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Adam Mitchell
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nmnighteyes wrote:
On items who mention Defense, do they only mean the one you use to defend health loss og do they mean as in defending against any attack?

For ease of reference it can, among other places, be found on
"Icon of Resistance"
Once per, turn, you may re-roll a single failed Defense roll.


It makes quite a difference for the usefulness of those items with this wording if you can reroll a die on a willpower save.

Argument for allowing Willpower re-roll:
You are "defending" against a horror hit

Arguments against:
The stat used to prevent Health loss is named Defense.


Even worse problem: they use the word "roll" when they mean "die"shake.
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Neil Edmonds
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The previous 2 posts are excellent. I wish Flying Frog had worked all this out before charging ahead with Forbidden Fortress.
 
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Eric Harman
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Solan wrote:


Even worse problem: they use the word "roll" when they mean "die"shake.


That *is* the major issue.
 
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Michael NA
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Thanks for all the answers guys...

Cooperton wrote:
Solan wrote:


Even worse problem: they use the word "roll" when they mean "die"shake.


That *is* the major issue.


This is the reason for my question actually, because when they can confuse such important terms they might have messed up others in regards to understanding vs. intention
 
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n rode
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What are the cases that armor can be used but defense can not?
 
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Eric Harman
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lnazgul wrote:
What are the cases that armor can be used but defense can not?


Any time an attack against health specifies that defense isn't allowed but does not mention armor.
 
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