$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 55.27

4,041 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
25.5% of Goal | 29 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
35 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: How would you define trick-taking as a mechanism? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Kalle Malmioja
Finland
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I had few conversations on this topic and would like to know more about how players feel about this mechanism.

To get the ball rolling I would consider the following as a start of a definition. A trick-taking game is a card game that is played in rounds, each round is called a trick where cards are played.

Fill the other details from the choices below.

Poll
How many turns a trick can go?
One
Until all but one player passes
      99 answers
Poll created by Kuula


Poll
How many cards can be played in a trick?
One
A set that can range from 1 to many
      99 answers
Poll created by Kuula


Poll
Is a defined trump mandatory in a trick-taking game?
Yes
No
      105 answers
Poll created by Kuula


Poll
What happens to the cards played to the trick?
They're discarded
The winner gets them
Doesn't matter
      100 answers
Poll created by Kuula


Poll
Who starts the trick?
Next player clockwise
The winner of the previous trick
Doesn't matter
      103 answers
Poll created by Kuula
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Robinson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The second last question does not include the correct answer - "The cards are placed on the trick winner's scoring pile". I chose "The Winner Gets Them" as the closest, but that could imply that the winner adds them to their hand, which is wrong.

Anyway, surely the correct definition of "trick taking" is "that mechanism central to Bridge/Whist/etc..."?

Cheers,
Graham
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frederic Heath-Renn
United Kingdom
London
London
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
All the games I can think of that allow playing a set of cards to a trick - Tichu, Haggis, Big Two - also continue until all but one player passes (thus making them climbing, rather than trick-taking, games).

Can anyone think of a game that allows playing a set of cards to a trick, but still only goes around once?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If a game is described as a trick-taking game I'd assume that left of the dealer leads first, players play one card to the trick, following suit if able, highest card of the suit lead wins unless it is trumped (in which case highest trump wins), the winner of the trick takes the cards and puts them face down in front of them in a way which shows how many tricks they have won). The winner of the previous trick leads the next trick.

You can have a trick taking game which breaks any of these rules, but if it breaks many/all it's probably not a trick taking game any more.

How many turns a trick can go? One - it's probably a climbing game if the answer is more than one.
How many cards can be played in a trick? I assume per player - one usually but there are games where you can play more than one (though some are climbing games), and at lest one game where playing to a trick is optional (Chwech)
Is a defined trump mandatory in a trick-taking game? Certainly not (e.g. Hearts)
What happens to the cards played to the trick? The winner puts them on their scoring pile.
Who starts the trick? Winner of previous trick, I don't know of any games where this is different but there may be some.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
flahr wrote:
Can anyone think of a game that allows playing a set of cards to a trick, but still only goes around once?


Pagat lists two multi-trick games; Luk Fu & Tien Gow.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Pagat's Trick Taking Games, Wikipedia's page, and David Parlett's
are probably good places too look at possibly types of trick taking game.

Also Potato Man for a trick taking game where you are not allowed to follow suit.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kalle Malmioja
Finland
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Poor wording from me, I meant as you answered that the winner places the cards from the trick to his/her scoring pile.

In my mind trick-taking is about two things, determining the winner and turn order. It is really close to a once-a-round auction but done specifically with numbered cards.

Could you consider game a trick-taking game if the cards would given to each player or even discarded? For example, after a trick the winner gives each player a card from the trick, that can be either positive or negative points.

To state that otherwise, could trick-taking be just the card play without considering what happens to the cards in the trick?

Last year two games came out, Pi mal Pflaumen and Joraku, that have trick-taking as a listed mechanism. In Plums the winner doesn't get all the cards, they're picked in order, and in Joraku the card played in the trick is also an action.

Do you consider them as trick-taking games?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kester J
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuula wrote:
Poor wording from me, I meant as you answered that the winner places the cards from the trick to his/her scoring pile.

In my mind trick-taking is about two things, determining the winner and turn order. It is really close to a once-a-round auction but done specifically with numbered cards.

Could you consider game a trick-taking game if the cards would given to each player or even discarded? For example, after a trick the winner gives each player a card from the trick, that can be either positive or negative points.

To state that otherwise, could trick-taking be just the card play without considering what happens to the cards in the trick?

Last year two games came out, Pi mal Pflaumen and Joraku, that have trick-taking as a listed mechanism. In Plums the winner doesn't get all the cards, they're picked in order, and in Joraku the card played in the trick is also an action.

Do you consider them as trick-taking games?


I think the answer to all of your questions is yes (although I've not yet played Joraku, so reserve the right to change my mind on that). Why are you interested in nailing the definition down? I don't think there will be total consensus on exactly what a trick-taker is (I'd say it requires multiple suits, for example, but I can see that others may think differently) so the discussion might be more productively focused if we know exactly what you want to achieve by asking.

For what it's worth, I see trick takers as fundamentally being hand management games; good play is usually about manipulating card play order to maximise, minimise, or correctly time the tricks that you win. In this framing, all the rules about what happens when you win a trick are simply incentives that alter what good play looks like. The main distinction from other hand management games (like, say, Twilight Struggle) is the resolution of each play (trick) by direct comparison between the cards played.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kalle Malmioja
Finland
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm basically being a poor sport but still trying to get a conversation going on about a mechanism I like quite a bt.

Honshu is my game. I called it a trick-taking map-making game and listed trick-taking as a mechanism in the game page. It was approved but changed in the past month to display auction/bidding and no trick-taking. I didn't like that.

One of the gripes players have about the game is that doesn't feel like trick-taking or it is not a trick-taking game. So, I wanted to ask the community what do they think is a trick-taking game? Can I call Honshu a trick-taking game or not. I don't want to falsely advertise the game for being one if it is not a trick-taking game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Graham Robinson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuula wrote:
I'm basically being a poor sport but still trying to get a conversation going on about a mechanism I like quite a bt.

Honshu is my game. I called it a trick-taking map-making game and listed trick-taking as a mechanism in the game page. It was approved but changed in the past month to display auction/bidding and no trick-taking. I didn't like that.

One of the gripes players have about the game is that doesn't feel like trick-taking or it is not a trick-taking game. So, I wanted to ask the community what do they think is a trick-taking game? Can I call Honshu a trick-taking game or not. I don't want to falsely advertise the game for being one if it is not a trick-taking game.


I've gone and read a couple of the reviews, and I can see why people don't think this is a trick-taking game. The "auction" element is sort of related to trick-taking, but modified pretty heavily away from what I understand by that phrase.

Having said that, I think describing the "auction" phase as "trick-taking-like" or "-inspired" is entirely reasonable. The ancestry is clearly there.

Cheers,
Graham
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
T. Ips
Denmark
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I always thought the phrase "trick-taking games" were very odd. In particular the "trick" part. I don't quite get why they are called a "trick" ?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuula wrote:
Do you consider them as trick-taking games?

I've not played either and never heard of Joraku before - but I agree that they have trick-taking as a mechanism based on skim reading a review. Whether they are trick taking games or not I don't know but you've got to start somewhere when describing a game...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom P
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Do not shed tears over throws of the past, roll again!
badge
Click here for free games.
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuula wrote:
I'm basically being a poor sport but still trying to get a conversation going on about a mechanism I like quite a bt.

Honshu is my game. I called it a trick-taking map-making game and listed trick-taking as a mechanism in the game page. It was approved but changed in the past month to display auction/bidding and no trick-taking. I didn't like that.

One of the gripes players have about the game is that doesn't feel like trick-taking or it is not a trick-taking game. So, I wanted to ask the community what do they think is a trick-taking game? Can I call Honshu a trick-taking game or not. I don't want to falsely advertise the game for being one if it is not a trick-taking game.


A game may have an element of mechanism x without being 'an x game' I guess. Not played Honshu yet, but from reading the rules the trick-taking element doesn't seem like the main focus? As far as I can tell it's a tableau building game with trick taking used as an element in the beginning of each round. I don't think I'd call it a trick-taking game then. I might feel the same about Joraku.

For me it doesn't necessarily matter what happens to the tricks, who starts, how they are won etc. The core mechanism is playing a card once round and some reasoning to 'win' the trick. In this sense Plums is a track taker than has set collection as a scoring mechanism. But I guess it has to be core and not just part of a wider game. Because lots of games contain more than one mechanism.

I'd agree with Kester re hand management. Out of your questions I think only 1 and 2 matter. I guess I could imagine a trick taking game where more than one card is played, but keeping going round till players pass definitely turns it into a climbing game for me.

As an aside, Mit List und Tücke is an interesting game to throw up some of the standard rules: loser leads next trick; scoring works a little like Bullenparty; winner chooses what cards to take; no-follow. It's very much a trick taking game though. I like it a lot.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom P
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Do not shed tears over throws of the past, roll again!
badge
Click here for free games.
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, not surprised in the least to see Kester and Fred weighing in here. I imagine Martin will be along soon enough.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuula wrote:
Can I call Honshu a trick-taking game or not.

Well I've not played it, but from reading a review it sounds like it's slightly less like a trick taking game than Joraku. I can see the trick taking influence - it does seem slightly more like trick taking than auction since you must play a card, and the fact that if one player adds a a resource cube other players may only add the same colour resource cube seems influenced by following suit in trick taking games.

I wouldn't decripbe it as a "trick taking game" but maybe your "trick-taking map-making game" could work or "bidding and a map-building game". I doubt someone would say "I liked this (Honshu) trick-taking game so I might like another trick-taking game and will look something similar up", and my experience is that most people know what a trick taking game is anyway. Trick taking isn't some obscure hobby game mechanism like deck building or drafting. I think many people will have played a trick taking game like whist, hearts, spades, bridge etc (though maybe that's a UK thing).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The first two questions make me think that someone is arguing that climbing games, like Tichu, are trick taking games. I think they are different enough to be considered something other than trick taking games.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daily Grind
United States
Raleigh
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thip wrote:
I always thought the phrase "trick-taking games" were very odd. In particular the "trick" part. I don't quite get why they are called a "trick" ?

Often words mutate from other languages and the transition path is lost. But people speculate. So, because etymology is fun, here are some conjectures:

Quote:
from Dutch trek ‎(“a pull, draw, trick”), from trekken ‎(“to draw”), from Middle Dutch trekken, trēken ‎(“to pull, place, put, move”), from Old Dutch *trekkan, *trekan ‎(“to move, drag”),


and then when specifically applied to card games:

Quote:
to miss a trick "fail to take advantage of opportunity" is from 1889; from 1872 in reference to playing the card-game of whist, which might be the original literal sense.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh Bodah
United States
Melrose
MA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
How many turns a trick can go?


One (or n). Trick-taking is forced play. Going around until someone passes happens in climbing and auction games

Quote:
How many cards can be played in a trick?


Typically a fixed number. Climbing games tend to allow for multiple

Quote:
Is a defined trump mandatory in a trick-taking game?


No

Quote:
What happens to the cards played to the trick?


The winner assigning them as negative points could be just as valid, so it doesn't matter

Quote:
Who starts the trick?


Doesn't matter, but typically it's the winner of the trick

Also not here, but I think trick-taking games in general should try to make you follow suit (or not follow suit)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hiimjosh wrote:
Also not here, but I think trick-taking games in general should try to make you follow suit (or not follow suit)
While that's common, I don't think it is a defining feature of trick taking games. Sticheln is clearly a trick-taking game but doesn't require you to follow suit.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ron Dempsey
United States
Hudson
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Kuula wrote:
I'm basically being a poor sport but still trying to get a conversation going on about a mechanism I like quite a bt.

Honshu is my game. I called it a trick-taking map-making game and listed trick-taking as a mechanism in the game page. It was approved but changed in the past month to display auction/bidding and no trick-taking. I didn't like that.

One of the gripes players have about the game is that doesn't feel like trick-taking or it is not a trick-taking game. So, I wanted to ask the community what do they think is a trick-taking game? Can I call Honshu a trick-taking game or not. I don't want to falsely advertise the game for being one if it is not a trick-taking game.


I've taught Honshu to several people and the issue is that "trick taking" is very narrowly defined for a significant percentage of the community. One couple was trying to puzzle through the rules themselves, but since they had a preconceived notion of what a trick taking game was (player who wins the trick gets all the cards) they skipped over that section of the rules and couldn't see how the game worked. Personally, I think if Pi mal Pflaumen is considered a trick taking game (and it is according to BGG), Honshu should be as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
A trick is a card game mechanic when each player must play in turn order one card face up which is then captured by the highest ranked card.

Note:
- Following suit is not required (though very common): Sticheln, Bezique, 2 hand Pinochle (which is practically identical to Bezique.). The Czech game Sedna is another example (But it also breaks one card only per trick rule.)
- Trump suits are not required. Hearts and No Trump hands in Bridge (and other games) are well known examples.
- Winner leading the next trick is very common.
- The Eldest Hand (player to the left of the dealer who has the first cards dealt to them, thus their hand is older than the others,( often goes first, but not always: Bridge, the player to the left of the Declarer goes leads to the first trick. Sometimes it is nominated by the declarer.
- Sometimes are not retained for scoring but are discarded instead: Go Boom.
- You MUST play a card in trick taking games, even if you know it will not win. In climbing games, you CANNOT play a card(s) when they will not potentially win and must pass instead.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John
United Kingdom
Southampton
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
rri1 wrote:
- You MUST play a card in trick taking games, even if you know it will not win. In climbing games, you CANNOT play a card(s) when they will not potentially win and must pass instead.

So is David Parlett's Chwech a trick taking game? It breaks this rule (you may pass). He describes is as a trick taking game and he know more about card games than most.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Gillespie
Canada
Strathmore
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thunkd wrote:
The first two questions make me think that someone is arguing that climbing games, like Tichu, are trick taking games. I think they are different enough to be considered something other than trick taking games.


Different yes, but still closely related. I would think that climbing games are more of a subset of trick taking games than a separate category.

One other feature that hasn't been mentioned is the prevalence of bidding in trick taking games. It is not a mandatory feature, but there ale a large number of trick taking games where players must bid on how many tricks or how many individual points they will receive.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Colin Gillespie
Canada
Strathmore
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I felt limited by the binary choices in the polls, so here are my long answers:

How many turns must a trick go?
-One, unless it is a climbing game

How many cards can be played?
-Typically one, although sets are less commonly used and are more prevalent in climbing games

Is a defined trump mandatory in a trick-taking game?
-A ubiquitous feature, but not mandatory. To the point where it is necessary to specify when there is no trump.

What happens to the cards played to the trick?
-They generally go to the winner of the trick, to be scored individually at the end of the hand, or as a record of how many tricks have been won by that player.

Who starts the trick?
-Usually it is the player to the left of the dealer to start, and the winner of each trick thereafter.

Bear in mind that these are all conventions and not necessarily defining features. A game can still be a trick taking game if it goes against some of these but the further it strays from these the more it becomes something else.

And finally, from the font of all wisdom (and apologies for the wall of text):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trick-taking_game

Basic structure

Certain actions in trick-taking games with three or more players always proceed in the same direction. In games originating in North and West Europe, including England, Russia, and the United States and Canada, the rotation is typically clockwise, i.e. play proceeds to the left; in South and East Europe and Asia it is typically counterclockwise, so that play proceeds to the right. When games move from one region to another, they tend to initially preserve their original sense of rotation, but a region with a dominant sense of rotation may adapt a migrated game to its own sensibilities. For two-player games the order of play is moot as either direction would result in exactly the same turn order.

In each hand or deal, one player is the dealer. This function moves from deal to deal in the normal direction of play. The dealer usually shuffles the deck (some games use "soft shuffling", where the dealer does not explicitly shuffle the deck), and after giving the player one seat from the dealer opposite the normal direction of play an opportunity to cut, hands out the same (prescribed) number of cards to each player, usually in an order following the normal direction of play. Most games deal cards one at a time in rotation; a few games require dealing multiple cards at one time in a packet. The cards apportioned to each player are collectively known as that player's hand and are only known to the player. Some games involve a set of cards that are not dealt to a player's hand; these cards form the stock (see below). It is generally good manners to leave one's cards on the table until the deal is complete.

The player sitting one seat after the declarer (one with the highest bid and not the dealer) in normal rotation is known as the eldest hand. The eldest hand leads to the first trick, i.e. places the first card of the trick face up in the middle of all players. The other players each follow with a single card, in the direction of play. When every player has played a card to the trick, the trick is evaluated to determine the winner, who takes the cards, places them face down on a pile, and leads to the next trick. The winner or taker of a trick is usually the player who played the highest-value card of the suit that was led, unless the game uses one or more trump cards (see below).

The player who leads to a trick is usually allowed to play an arbitrary card from their hand. Some games have restrictions on the first card played in the hand, or may disallow leading a card of a particular suit until that suit has been played "off-suit" in a prior trick (called "breaking" the suit, usually seen in cases of a trump or penalty suit). Other games have special restrictions on the card that must be led to the first trick; usually this is a specific card (e.g. 2♣) and the holder of that card is the eldest hand instead of the person one seat after the dealer.

The following players must follow suit if they can, i.e. they must play a card of the same suit if possible. A player who cannot follow suit may sluff a card, i.e. play a card of a different suit. A trick is won by the player who has played the highest-ranked card of the suit led, i.e. of the suit of the first card in the trick (unless the game uses a trump suit; see below).

It can be an advantage to lead to a trick, because the player who leads controls the suit that is led and which others must follow; playing a suit that the leading player has many of decreases the chance that anyone else would be able to follow suit, while conversely playing a suit the player has few of allows the player to rid their hand of that suit (known as voiding the suit), freeing them from the restriction to follow suit when that suit is led by another player. On the other hand, it can also be an advantage to be the last player who plays to the trick, because at that point one has full information about the other cards played to the trick; the last player to a trick can play a card just slightly higher or lower than the current winning card, guaranteeing they will win or lose it by the minimum amount necessary, saving more valuable high or low value cards for situations where they must guarantee that a card played early to a trick will win or lose.

When all cards have been played, the number or contents of the tricks won by each player is tallied and used to update the score. Scoring based on the play of tricks varies widely between games, but in most games either the number of tricks a player or partnership has won (plain-trick games), or the value of certain cards that the player has won by taking tricks (point-trick games) is important.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryan Thunkd
United States
Florence
MA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Arkarsha wrote:
I've taught Honshu to several people and the issue is that "trick taking" is very narrowly defined for a significant percentage of the community.
I don't really consider Honshu a trick-taking game. It's trick-taking-ish... but you're not really taking tricks so much as bidding for turn order.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.