$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 86.54

5,699 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
35.9% of Goal | 27 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
9 Posts

Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points [resolved] rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Gilles Oth
Luxembourg
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello,

Two quick questions about Mind Wipe and blanking the text box of enemies, just to make sure that I didn't miss anything:

1. I assume Mind Wipe also blanks the damage icons on the enemy card? The Rules Reference states that the text box is considered not to have any of its printed content.

Quote:
Blank
If a card’s printed text box is considered “blank” by an ability, that text box is treated as if it did not have any of its printed content. Text and/or icons gained from another source are not blanked.
° A card’s text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities.

2. If a "Mind Wiped" Monster with a "Victory X." text is killed (for example the Ice Ghoul, in order to blank their icons to prevent taking damage/horror from attacks of opportunity), the card will be discarded instead of going to the Victory Display, correct?


Answers:
Quote:
Hi Gilles!

1. Damage and horror icons are not part of the enemy’s text box, so they are not blanked by Mind Wipe. Generally speaking, the text box consist of traits, abilities, keywords, and other text-based instructions (like Prey, Victory, etc).

2. In this case, it would go to the discard pile, because it’s still blanked at the time that you’re determining where it would go when defeated. Then simultaneously with it entering the discard pile, the blanking effect expires.

Hope you’re enjoying the game! Cheers,
Matthew Newman
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Wallace-Moyer
United States
Lebanon
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
In the rules reference (pg28 and 29) it specifies that an enemies abilities and traits are separate from it's damage and horror. And the card specifically addresses the text box of the enemy. So I think this card is just intended to wipe out an enemies abilities, so that maybe it doesn't get some boost or have retaliate or hunter or some other keyword.

Otherwise if it blanked an enemy's damage and horror icons, this would essentially allow you to take attacks of opportunity forever in a round and not worry about anything which would make it a very overpowered card (when you consider Guardian's Dodge 1-cost only cancels 1 attack, and Skid's special item is an event to prevent attacks from non-Elite enemies.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phoenix Bird
Antarctica
msg tools
mbmbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
This is an excellent question and definitely something for the FAQ as the rules and card anatomy don’t define text box.

But surely the text box – namely the box containing text - contains text. i.e. written words

Traits = words
Keywords = words
card text = some words
and abilities = words

When your Investigator text box is blanked by the Stubborn Detective your Health and Sanity don’t disappear.

I don’t think those icons are text or in the text box.

But obviously it would be cool if they did.

Phoenix
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bobby Marino
United States
Windsor
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
The rules do define text boxes, but under blank as quoted above, not under something convenient, like "text box":
A card's text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities.

So with mind wipe you only lose keywords, card texts, and abilities.

I don't consider the victory points to be any of those, but I don't see anything to confirm that.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Wallace-Moyer
United States
Lebanon
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
supermarino wrote:
A card's text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities.
I don't consider the victory points to be any of those, but I don't see anything to confirm that.

Rules Reference wrote:
An ability is the specialized game text that indicates how a card affects the game.


I would argue that Victory points are part of how that card interacts with the game (i.e. a victory point card is completed in some way and is therefore added to the victory display) so it is part of a card's ability.

It sorta makes sense too. It gives the Mind Wipe a downside which seems to be how all of the Mystic Spells are, they all have a risk of a downside.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris G
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
I think the wipe would not effect the vp's as they are separate. It's only effecting any of the cards special abilities, like hunter prey etc... VP's aren't diminished neither are core stats.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phoenix Bird
Antarctica
msg tools
mbmbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
And onto point two

RR P21
Victory Display, Victory Points
Some encounter cards are worth victory points. The text Victory X indicates that a card is worth X victory points.
An encounter card worth victory points that is overcome by the investigators is stored in the victory display until the end of the scenario. The victory display is an out-of-play game area shared by all players. Upon completion of the scenario, the cards in the victory display provide experience, which can be used to upgrade an investigator's deck (see "Campaign Play" on page 5).
• As a victory point enemy is defeated, place the card in the victory display instead of in the discard pile.
• At the end of a scenario, place each victory point location that is in play, revealed, and with no clues on it in the victory display.
• As a victory point treachery card completes its resolution, place it in the victory display instead of in the discard pile.

Well Victory is certainly text. And it looks just as textish as Retaliate, Prey or other texty words that I would consider to be blanked.

The question is when the card stops being blanked. When it leaves play does the Victory text return in enough time to avert it from the discard pile to the victory display.

P14 RR: Lasting Effects
Some card abilities create conditions that affect the game state for a specified duration (for example, "until the end of the phase" or " for this skill test"). Such effects are known as lasting effects.
• A lasting effect persists beyond the resolution of the ability that created it, for the duration specified by the effect. The effect continues to affect the game state for the specified duration regardless of whether the card that created the lasting effect is or remains in play.
• If a lasting effect affects in-play cards (or cards in a specified area), it is only applied to cards that are in play (or the specified area) when the lasting effect is established. Cards that enter play (or the specified area) after its establishment are not affected by the lasting effect.
• A lasting effect expires as soon as the timing point specified by its duration is reached. This means that an "until the end of the phase" lasting effect expires before an "at the end of the phase" ability or delayed effect may initiate.
• A lasting effect that expires at the end of a specific time period can only be initiated during that time period.

So according to this the card text is blank in the discard pile until the end of the phase it was initiated in.

But

P14 RR: Leaves Play
The phrase "leaves play" refers to any time a card makes a transition from an in-play state to an out-of-play state (see "In Play and Out of Play" on page 13).
If a card leaves play, the following consequences occur simultaneously with the card leaving play:
• All tokens on the card are returned to the token pool.
• All attachments on the card are discarded.
• All lasting effects and/or delayed effects affecting the card while it was in play expire for that card.

So at the same time as it leaves play the Victory text returns. Maybe placing the card in the Victory display instead of in the discard pile.

If it doesn’t then I would say this is a really thematic ruling as it totally fits with the Mystic’s high risk high reward design. Sure you can get rid of nasty text like Doom but you might also get rid of nice text like victory.

This is unfortunately one of those nasty timing situations that the Collectable Card Game foisted upon us as its legacy. Ah, The Stack...

But wait...

RR 17
Priority of Simultaneous Resolution

If an effect affects multiple players simultaneously, but the players must individually make choices to resolve the effect, these choices are made in player order. Once all necessary choices have been made, the effect resolves simultaneously upon all affected entities.
• If two or more forced abilities (including delayed effects) would resolve at the same time, the lead investigator determines the order in which the abilities resolve.
• If two or more constant abilities and/or lasting effects cannot be applied simultaneously, the lead investigator determines the order in which they are applied.

Well I guess that didn’t help much.

Or maybe the lead investigator gets to decide if the Constant Ability (Victory) or the Lasting Effect (blank text) gets to take precedence.

Or we could just email Mr Newman and let Mplain add it to the FAQ.

I vote for that.

Phoenix
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phoenix Bird
Antarctica
msg tools
mbmbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
supermarino wrote:
The rules do define text boxes, but under blank as quoted above, not under something convenient, like "text box":
A card's text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities.


I would like to disagree in the politest way possible.

The phrase
“A card's text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities.”

Merely states it includes those four things.

It doesn’t say a text box ONLY includes those four things.

There may be a fifth or sixth thing included in a text box. It does not say it excludes everything but those four things or that it consists solely of those four things. A text box may feature a dozen elements in addition to traits, keywords, card text and abilities.

The language is far too imprecise to be a proper definition for my liking.

And to think they could have solved the whole thing with another arrow on the Card Anatomy page...

Phoenix
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mplain
Russia
flag msg tools
mbmb
Re: Mind Wipe - damage/horror icons, & victory points
Matt gave an official answer for this one:

mplain wrote:
Hello Matt!

If I play Mind Wipe on an enemy with Victory X and defeat it, do I add it to the victory display?

Is Victory X a part of a card's text box?

The rules entry for Blank says: "A card's text box includes: traits, keywords, card text and abilities."

Some people argue that from the way it's worded, it's not necessarily a complete list, might be just examples. Some even argue that an enemy's Damage and Horror might also be part of its text box.

Also an argument could be made that by blanking the enemy's abilities, I've made the enemy weaker, and so it shouldn't be worth as much XP.

Thanks Matt!

Matt Newman wrote:
Hello!

There are two elements to this question: 1) Whether “Victory X” is part of an enemy’s text box, and if so, (2) The timing of it being added to the victory display.

In response to #1, Victory X is indeed a part of an enemy’s text box. Generally speaking any printed text that is within that same window is part of the text box. (Not counting icons and the like).

As to #2, it’s a little more complicated. Lasting effects affecting a card expire simultaneously with the card leaving play. (RR pg 14) But enemies with victory points are added to the victory display instead of the discard pile as they are defeated (RR pg 21). The key thing here is that the rules for victory is a replacement effect that determines how the enemy leaves play (aka does it go to the discard pile or the Victory Display?) Once that is determined and set, the process ensues and the enemy actually leaves play. So, the short version is: the enemy is still blank at the time it *would* have gone to the victory display, so it goes to the discard pile instead. Then Mind Wipe expires (but it’s too late).

Cheers,
Matthew Newman

So, Mind Wipe does blank victory points. But not damage/horror icons.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.