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Conan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Is Wall-Wrecker a Move Action? rss

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Justin Colm
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My understanding is it cost 2 Movement points to move from one adjacent space to another across a wooden wall, using the 'Wall-Wrecker' skill. But does that make it a 'Move' Action?

Is it subject to hindering rules? Can it be used to move away from an enemy with the 'Block' skill?

This became a big issue for us in the Tavern scenario with Conan and Thak (sorry, I forget the name).

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François Mahieu
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My understanding of the blocking skill is that you can't ever leave a space occupied by a blocking creature, unless they leave first, or they die. First. Or unless maybe you would use some magical trick to disappear (teleportation for instance).
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Stephan Beal
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High Flying Bird wrote:
My understanding is it cost 2 Movement points to move from one adjacent space to another across a wooden wall, using the 'Wall-Wrecker' skill. But does that make it a 'Move' Action?

Is it subject to hindering rules? Can it be used to move away from an enemy with the 'Block' skill?


As far as i know, there has been no ruling about that yet (at least not here on BGG). i'm "hoping" that the v2 rules clarify whether Movement Skills are Move Actions.

i interpret Wall Wrecker as being a skill which augments an in-process Move action. While moving, you pay Wall Wrecker's 2 extra movement points and apply its effect. Thus i would apply hindering to the Move action which Wall Wrecker is about to modify.


Edit: Blocking is very explicit in what it allows to pass it by, so i would not allow Wall Wrecker to bypass it.
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glen bruton
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As wall wrecker requires an ADDITIONAL 2 movement points to move one area I consider it a Move action that is blocked by blocker and hindered (yes its additional, see this thread link but its a mistranslation from French).
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Justin Colm
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sgbeal wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
My understanding is it cost 2 Movement points to move from one adjacent space to another across a wooden wall, using the 'Wall-Wrecker' skill. But does that make it a 'Move' Action?

Is it subject to hindering rules? Can it be used to move away from an enemy with the 'Block' skill?


As far as i know, there has been no ruling about that yet (at least not here on BGG). i'm "hoping" that the v2 rules clarify whether Movement Skills are Move Actions.

i interpret Wall Wrecker as being a skill which augments an in-process Move action. While moving, you pay Wall Wrecker's 2 extra movement points and apply its effect. Thus i would apply hindering to the Move action which Wall Wrecker is about to modify.


Edit: Blocking is very explicit in what it allows to pass it by, so i would not allow Wall Wrecker to bypass it.


We also interpreted it in the way you lay out.

Thematically though, I like the idea of Conan cornered by some huge beast or a mountain of guards and... he smashes through the wall and escapes. But too often the rules of this game are anti-fun.

I have a problem with the whole buzz-kill nature of the 'Block' skill, which I might make a separate topic about. It's not fun to have Conan stuck for an entire game (if his rolls aren't good) in a war of attrition with some beast that he simply cannot get away from under any circumstance but killing it. Even for the Overlord it's not a fun tactic because he's usually using gems to defend the monster instead of activating tiles but in our games he feels obliged to do it because his strategy is so often necessarily based around effective use of the 'Block' skill. He COULD use other strategies but doing so feels like making a choice to lose the game.

For example, in 'Wrath of Anu' (I remembered the name of the scenario) why wouldn't the OL simply sit Thak down at the Tavern exit once he's activated? Pile him up with a few reinforcements too, who spawn on that space of course, and let Conan have to cleave his way through them to escape. Chances are, Conan dies. Sure, he can go rummage in chests for some exploding orbs whilst the OL just sits and waits for him... boring for the OL, frustrating for the heroes. A total joy kill. But if the OL decides to chase Conan around with Thak chances are Conan will get away.

The problem is particularly keen in this scenario as Conan is the only hero so there is no way around it. Conan has to kill Thak and anyone else who has piled up on that space unless he's lucky enough to hit the right priest very early.

We are finding the Block skill is killing the enjoyment in every scenario we play. Put the big monster on Conan, slow the whole team down long enough to get the time limit win. In the Pict village, move the Snake to the princess. In 'The Heart of Darkness' stick the Snake and Khosatrel Khel on top of Skuthus. Go to sleep until the time limit runs down. Every scenario seems to dictate a really boring, defensive strategy for the OL and it's usually the 'Block' skill that enables (mandates, IMO) it.
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Justin Colm
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surg3on wrote:
As wall wrecker requires an ADDITIONAL 2 movement points to move one area I consider it a Move action that is blocked by blocker and hindered (yes its additional, see this thread link but its a mistranslation from French).


Thanks for that. It had passed me by.

Well, there's one more interesting skill that just became less useful... shake
 
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Martin Gallo
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I went with "yes it is a move action" but really love the thematic nature of just letting Conan escape a brawl by busting through a (wooden) wall, despite knowing he would just fight his way out of the brawl.

It all comes down to how much you like house rules and how smart you think Conan was - stupid barbarian or genius.
 
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Aditya C
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High Flying Bird wrote:
sgbeal wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
My understanding is it cost 2 Movement points to move from one adjacent space to another across a wooden wall, using the 'Wall-Wrecker' skill. But does that make it a 'Move' Action?

Is it subject to hindering rules? Can it be used to move away from an enemy with the 'Block' skill?


As far as i know, there has been no ruling about that yet (at least not here on BGG). i'm "hoping" that the v2 rules clarify whether Movement Skills are Move Actions.

i interpret Wall Wrecker as being a skill which augments an in-process Move action. While moving, you pay Wall Wrecker's 2 extra movement points and apply its effect. Thus i would apply hindering to the Move action which Wall Wrecker is about to modify.


Edit: Blocking is very explicit in what it allows to pass it by, so i would not allow Wall Wrecker to bypass it.


We also interpreted it in the way you lay out.

Thematically though, I like the idea of Conan cornered by some huge beast or a mountain of guards and... he smashes through the wall and escapes. But too often the rules of this game are anti-fun.

I have a problem with the whole buzz-kill nature of the 'Block' skill, which I might make a separate topic about. It's not fun to have Conan stuck for an entire game (if his rolls aren't good) in a war of attrition with some beast that he simply cannot get away from under any circumstance but killing it. Even for the Overlord it's not a fun tactic because he's usually using gems to defend the monster instead of activating tiles but in our games he feels obliged to do it because his strategy is so often necessarily based around effective use of the 'Block' skill. He COULD use other strategies but doing so feels like making a choice to lose the game.

For example, in 'Wrath of Anu' (I remembered the name of the scenario) why wouldn't the OL simply sit Thak down at the Tavern exit once he's activated? Pile him up with a few reinforcements too, who spawn on that space of course, and let Conan have to cleave his way through them to escape. Chances are, Conan dies. Sure, he can go rummage in chests for some exploding orbs whilst the OL just sits and waits for him... boring for the OL, frustrating for the heroes. A total joy kill. But if the OL decides to chase Conan around with Thak chances are Conan will get away.

The problem is particularly keen in this scenario as Conan is the only hero so there is no way around it. Conan has to kill Thak and anyone else who has piled up on that space unless he's lucky enough to hit the right priest very early.

We are finding the Block skill is killing the enjoyment in every scenario we play. Put the big monster on Conan, slow the whole team down long enough to get the time limit win. In the Pict village, move the Snake to the princess. In 'The Heart of Darkness' stick the Snake and Khosatrel Khel on top of Skuthus. Go to sleep until the time limit runs down. Every scenario seems to dictate a really boring, defensive strategy for the OL and it's usually the 'Block' skill that enables (mandates, IMO) it.


Without blocking the overlord might as well not play cause the heroes would just stomp them. You just have to strategize a way to avoid getting trapped instead of just fighting and rushing in.
 
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Frank BLACKFIRE
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In french V2 of the rules :
"Ce sont des points de mouvement qui sont dépensés pour utiliser cette compétence = movement points are spend to use this skill.
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Justin Colm
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Caibre wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
sgbeal wrote:
High Flying Bird wrote:
My understanding is it cost 2 Movement points to move from one adjacent space to another across a wooden wall, using the 'Wall-Wrecker' skill. But does that make it a 'Move' Action?

Is it subject to hindering rules? Can it be used to move away from an enemy with the 'Block' skill?


As far as i know, there has been no ruling about that yet (at least not here on BGG). i'm "hoping" that the v2 rules clarify whether Movement Skills are Move Actions.

i interpret Wall Wrecker as being a skill which augments an in-process Move action. While moving, you pay Wall Wrecker's 2 extra movement points and apply its effect. Thus i would apply hindering to the Move action which Wall Wrecker is about to modify.


Edit: Blocking is very explicit in what it allows to pass it by, so i would not allow Wall Wrecker to bypass it.


We also interpreted it in the way you lay out.

Thematically though, I like the idea of Conan cornered by some huge beast or a mountain of guards and... he smashes through the wall and escapes. But too often the rules of this game are anti-fun.

I have a problem with the whole buzz-kill nature of the 'Block' skill, which I might make a separate topic about. It's not fun to have Conan stuck for an entire game (if his rolls aren't good) in a war of attrition with some beast that he simply cannot get away from under any circumstance but killing it. Even for the Overlord it's not a fun tactic because he's usually using gems to defend the monster instead of activating tiles but in our games he feels obliged to do it because his strategy is so often necessarily based around effective use of the 'Block' skill. He COULD use other strategies but doing so feels like making a choice to lose the game.

For example, in 'Wrath of Anu' (I remembered the name of the scenario) why wouldn't the OL simply sit Thak down at the Tavern exit once he's activated? Pile him up with a few reinforcements too, who spawn on that space of course, and let Conan have to cleave his way through them to escape. Chances are, Conan dies. Sure, he can go rummage in chests for some exploding orbs whilst the OL just sits and waits for him... boring for the OL, frustrating for the heroes. A total joy kill. But if the OL decides to chase Conan around with Thak chances are Conan will get away.

The problem is particularly keen in this scenario as Conan is the only hero so there is no way around it. Conan has to kill Thak and anyone else who has piled up on that space unless he's lucky enough to hit the right priest very early.

We are finding the Block skill is killing the enjoyment in every scenario we play. Put the big monster on Conan, slow the whole team down long enough to get the time limit win. In the Pict village, move the Snake to the princess. In 'The Heart of Darkness' stick the Snake and Khosatrel Khel on top of Skuthus. Go to sleep until the time limit runs down. Every scenario seems to dictate a really boring, defensive strategy for the OL and it's usually the 'Block' skill that enables (mandates, IMO) it.


Without blocking the overlord might as well not play cause the heroes would just stomp them. You just have to strategize a way to avoid getting trapped instead of just fighting and rushing in.


I agree. Our issue is that he OL strategy is so dependent on this ability. He has no choice in his strategy and is forced to choke the life and fun out of the game.

As for 'avoiding getting trapped', it is impossible to avoid the blockers most of the time. If the OL puts the Snake on the princess in 'The Clutches of the Picts' the heroes have to kill it. Conan cannot carry the princess away from it. Shevatus loses Evasion with the encumbrance of the Princess and cannot carry her away from it. Hadrathus cannot teleport with the princess. There IS no way around it.

If the OL places Thak at the tavern entrance in 'Wrath of Anu' Conan has to fight it. There is no other way out of the tavern and no way for Conan to go around it. I would love someone to suggest a way to me that Conan can get around this other than by getting lucky and finding the right priest and escaping before Thak spawns. Why wouldn't the OL stack up Thak and a bunch of reinforcements on the exit space? Conan is fighting a losing battle getting through them all: Thak has 3 Armour and 10 Hit points of health. And if Conan focuses entirely on him the Guards will be hitting him, if the OL doesn't simply decide to keep his gems to defend Thak. It's not impossible for Conan but it's unlikely and not fun. Conan's best bet seems to be in getting the orbs and hoping they do some serious damage.

'In the Heart of Darkness': The OL puts both the Snake and Khosatrel Khel defending Skuthus, and it's not terribly difficult to do that before the heroes get to him. What do the heroes do? They need some pretty damn good rolling to hack through those guys before the end of turn 8. Not impossible but again, the odds aren't really in their favour. And it's boring, for heroes and OL.

If you're finding ways to 'avoid' the blockers then your OL is not playing well.

The 'Block' ability is just sucking the fun out of the game for us. We'd house rule it.. but as you say, the OL is not going to win very often without it. The one secenario we've played so far without a blocker so far is 'Hunting the Tigress'.. and yes, no surprise it is stacked heavily against the OL. I wish it was feasible for the OL to employ a strategy that didn't mean sucking the life out of the game.


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Bifi 666
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While I would agree that Block has been anti-fun in many of the scenarios we played, it is also true that in many scenarios positioning is key:

Note that in Wrath of Anu the inn has two exits (the other one in the room where Thak starts) and the OL cannot cover both.

The same goes for Serpent's Awakening - there are two entrances to secret tunnels and only one Olgerd.

Yes, Clutches of the Picts is specific in this manner, Giant Snake + princess (+ stone hut ideally) cannot be bypassed other than by killing the Snake. Nevertheless, this usually takes place later in the game (after killing Zogar Sag) and the resources which both sides have at their disposal are not only strained, they are also a cumulative result of all the small tactical choices and gem-for-gem exchanges (and luck of course) so far. I find this a very clever dimension of the scenario, which shows through repeated playing. It makes you rethink every action you take from a different perspective - so in the end you have a solid reserve for bringing down the Snake (and the OL doesn't have gems to protect it - or vice versa).
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Justin Colm
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Bifi666 wrote:
While I would agree that Block has been anti-fun in many of the scenarios we played, it is also true that in many scenarios positioning is key:

Note that in Wrath of Anu the inn has two exits (the other one in the room where Thak starts) and the OL cannot cover both.


Damn it, I did not notice that... but now I'm looking at the board and you're right... there's a second damn exit there. That changes things considerably, at least for that scenario.

Please take this bag of gold (looted from the Temple of Anu, naturally...)
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Bifi 666
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High Flying Bird wrote:
Please take this bag of gold (looted from the Temple of Anu, naturally...)

Oh, why thank you! arrrh
 
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