$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 128.12

7,582 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
47.8% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
22 Posts

Star Wars: Imperial Assault» Forums » Rules

Subject: Wookie Fortitude and Bleed rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
This recently came up during a campaign:
- Healthy Gharkaan has 4 Strain and Bleed condition.
- Gharkaan starts his Activation
- 1st action: Gharkaan Attacks, rolls Surge, uses Surge to recover 1 Strain (the defending opponent rolls 1 block)
- And thus the 1st Action resolves
- Now, Bleed specifies that you suffer 1 Strain AFTER YOU RESOLVE AN ACTION
- And Wookie Fortitude may be also used to remove the Bleed suffering 1 Strain "During your Activation" (according to pg.3 RRG "Abilities that trigger “during” a figure’s activation are used before or after either of that figure’s two actions.") which means AFTER THE 1ST ACTION (i.e. the attack)

So, can Gharkaan play the Wookie Fortitude ability after the attack (while, for a brief moment, having 3 Strain)?

If yes, does this mean that both effects are triggered during the same time (same time = after the attack resolves the 7 steps = after the figure performs the attack/action)?

And also the Rebel player chooses which one goes first?
(e.g. Suffer 1 Strain due to Wookie Fortitude, Remove Bleed, Suffer 1 Strain/Damage due to Bleed)

Am I missing something here?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
The strain from bleed must be suffered immediately after the action resolves, before you can do anything else that happens during your activation. Using actions is technically something that happens during your activation, so by your reasoning above, you could perform your second action before suffering from bleed after your first.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
mbmbmbmbmb
During your activation abilities can be used only before, between and after actions, not during them. Bleeding triggers after the action, and is thus performed before you have a chance to use any during your activation abilities.

RRG, page.2, Abilities wrote:
· An ability that can be used "during your activation" can be used before or after performing an action during an activation. It cannot be used while resolving an action.


Also, the attack action does not end before all "after the attack resolves" abilities have been either performed (or if they have costs, their use has been passed).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
csouth154 wrote:
The strain from bleed must be suffered immediately after the action resolves, before you can do anything else that happens during your activation. Using actions is technically something that happens during your activation, so by your reasoning above, you could perform your second action before suffering from bleed after your first.


But Wookie Fortitude isn't an action.

It's an ability because of RRG pg.2 "All text on cards and hero sheets are referred to as abilities.")

And it happens During your activation which according to RRG pg.3 "Abilities that trigger “during” a figure’s activation are used before or after either of that figure’s two actions."

Therefore, I don't have any choice but to play it before/after an action. And I choose to play it after the attack.

However, after the action, there's also the trigger of the Bleed condition effect!

Weird isn't?

Also, you say that the Strain from Bleed must be suffered immediately, but the card doesn't say "immediately" nor "must", it says that
- during your activation
- after you resolve an action
- you suffer 1 Strain
- or you can use special action to remove the condition
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
a1bert wrote:
During your activation abilities can be used only before, between and after actions, not during them. Bleeding triggers after the action, and is thus performed before you have a chance to use any during your activation abilities.

RRG, page.2, Abilities wrote:
· An ability that can be used "during your activation" can be used before or after performing an action during an activation. It cannot be used while resolving an action.


Also, the attack action does not end before all "after the attack resolves" abilities have been either performed (or if they have costs, their use has been passed).


You are right, Bleed triggers after the action. Why I don't have the chance to use the Wookie Fortitude ability? Do you mean that Bleed is part of resolving the action?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
You are essentially arguing that not using the word "immediately" should mean that you can choose to suffer the bleed penalty any time between resolving the action and ending your activation. Does that sound right to you?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
csouth154 wrote:
You are essentially arguing that not using the word "immediately" should mean that you can choose to suffer the bleed penalty any time between resolving the action and ending your activation. Does that sound right to you?


According to rules Gharkaan suffers 1 strain "after the action".
That's certain.

I wonder if Gharkaan can use an ability (e.g. Wookie Fortitude) before suffering the 1 strain. Provided I haven't missed anything, the Wookie Fortitude ability can also be used "after the action".

So, both effects happen simultaneously?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Ulver000 wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
You are essentially arguing that not using the word "immediately" should mean that you can choose to suffer the bleed penalty any time between resolving the action and ending your activation. Does that sound right to you?


According to rules Gharkaan suffers 1 strain "after the action".
That's certain.

I wonder if Gharkaan can use an ability (e.g. Wookie Fortitude) before suffering the 1 strain. Provided I haven't missed anything, the Wookie Fortitude ability can also be used "after the action".

So, both effects happen simultaneously?


Have you read the other responses besides mine? You seem very unwilling to accept our explanations of why you are mistaken..
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
mbmbmbmbmb
End of an action isn't a trigger for during-your-activation-abilities.

End of an action while you have the bleeding condition is a trigger for bleeding.

All abilities and rules that use "after", have an implied "immediately". Abilities that are not optional must be performed immediately when their trigger condition happens, or you are cheating. Abilities that are optional ('may' or have costs) must be chosen to be performed when the trigger condition happens, or chosen not to be performed. If you perform an during your activation ability, you are also giving up the trigger.

(Even if end of an action would be a trigger for during-your-activation abilities, mission/core rules are performed first, then imperial abilities, then rebel abilities. So, bleeding would still apply its +1
first. See Timing, page 2 of RRG.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
csouth154 wrote:
Ulver000 wrote:
csouth154 wrote:
You are essentially arguing that not using the word "immediately" should mean that you can choose to suffer the bleed penalty any time between resolving the action and ending your activation. Does that sound right to you?


According to rules Gharkaan suffers 1 strain "after the action".
That's certain.

I wonder if Gharkaan can use an ability (e.g. Wookie Fortitude) before suffering the 1 strain. Provided I haven't missed anything, the Wookie Fortitude ability can also be used "after the action".

So, both effects happen simultaneously?


Have you read the other responses besides mine? You seem very unwilling to accept our explanations of why you are mistaken..


I really do appreciate your feedback!
Sorry, for seeming unwilling to accept.
This isn't the case
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
No problem. Sorry for the implication. I think A1bert is explaining it quite well, as usual.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cris Bohde
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ulver000 wrote:


So, both effects happen simultaneously?


No.

Bleed (gaining a strain token) is an effect of the action. As Pasi already quoted from the RRG, effects IMMEDIATELY after an action must preceed any other chosen abilities or actions.

So, I agree with the other posters here. You can't use Wookiee Fortitude in this scenario.

Edit:
ninja'ed by Pasi lol
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In other words, your Attack action is not over when the attack you performed completes. It is over when the attack you performed and anything else triggered by that attack completes. Once, the attack, and all its triggered responses are complete, only then does the Attack action complete, and thus you would now be able to perform a 'during your activation' ability.

Another proof of why this separation of the attack ending and the action ending is with regards to spending movement points. Spending movement points to move is an ability you can perform during your activation. It has the same timing as other such abilities, and it must be perfromed before or after your actions, not during.

If you could perform, 'during your activation' abilities when an attack from an Attack action just finished, then you could spend movement points to move before activating Cleave from the attack. It should be obvious that this is not intended, so the only logical resolution is that the timing for the attack ending and the timing for after the Attack action are different times.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
Thank you very much for the input. Things start to clear a lot.

This also troubles me:
"Conditions are ongoing effects that are applied to figures. Each
condition has an ability that applies to the figure as long as it has
that condition."

Is Bleed essentially an ability?

The Bleed card text seems that it's written like it's an ability:
"During your activation, after you resolve an action other than the action listed below, you suffer 1 Strain."

Also, please help me, I am trying to find where it's written that non-optional abilities (e.g. Bleed) trigger first and then optional abilities (e.g. Fortitude) trigger.

All I could find is this (in the Conflict section):
"The decision for a player to resolve an optional effect coincides
with the order of resolution."

PS. I understand that it's not intended, but I still can't find the bloody text in the rules to prove it!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
mbmbmbmbmb
Ulver000 wrote:
Also, please help me, I am trying to find where it's written that non-optional abilities (e.g. Bleed) trigger first and then optional abilities (e.g. Fortitude) trigger.

Those abilities do not have the same timing. (The trigger and core/mission, imperial, rebel matters for timing.)

Bleeding happens due to an action being resolved. It must be performed as soon as an action has been resolved. If Bleeding has not triggered, then by definition you are still resolving the action. Abilities that can be performed during your activation cannot be performed during actions, so Bleeding must be resolved before you can do any of those.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
I really like that explanation, but I can't explain how you reach to that conclusion "If Bleeding has not triggered, then by definition you are still resolving the action" but as you say before "It must be performed as soon as an action has been resolved" (which is correct, according to card text)

The Bleed card says to suffer 1 Strain, after you resolve an action. So first the action has to be resolved, in order to suffer the strain.

Right?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
mbmbmbmbmb
Bleeding is a condition and conditions have been ruled to be core/mission rules.


What I have been trying to say that you can only choose the order of abilities if they have the same trigger condition. Abilities that you can perform during your activation are not triggered by an action being resolved (otherwise you could not perform those before the first action), and thus you cannot choose the order of resolving bleeding and during your activation abilities.

Suffering 1 strain to gain 1 movement point is an during your activation ability, and you certainly are not intended to do that just before suffering 1 strain from bleeding.

There is nothing simultaneous in the game. Even things that happen effectively at the same time, but have different trigger conditions, must have a predefined order. Timing resolution is for things that have the same trigger. Not similar, but the same.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I didn't address that part in my explanation either.

We know from many prior questions that things that happen immediately after something happens are triggered before events that must not happen while that same something happens. Bleeding is the former (immediately after) while 'during your activation' abilities are the latter (before or after, but not during).

This is also seen in resolution timing. For example, the conflicts section mentions that during a Campaign, the following timings are observed:
-- During an attack, the attacker's abilities trigger before the defender's abilities.
-- At other times, the Imperial player's abilities trigger before the Rebel players' abilities.

Several abilities trigger after an attack resolves, such as Conditions applied by keyword. In a conflict, where both players have abilities with this timing, even though the attack resolved, you still use the timing rules for 'during an attack' to determine the order of abilities. Thus, the attacker still goes first and defender goes afterwards, even if the attacker is Rebel.

Thus, the things that happen after something, such as Bleeding, still retain the same timing importance as that something that was the trigger. It's an odd concept to grasp as it is both after and during the something at the same time, but that's how it ends up.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
So to sum up, here's my interpretation of all of the above.

1) Effects resulting from abilities from conditions are played first,
because according to FAQ conditions = mission rules,
and according to RRG pg2 and pg9:
"resolve mission rules first, followed by effects
triggered by the Imperial player, then effects triggered by Rebel
players."

2) Wookie Fortitude, if used, it produces a Rebel effect so it's resolved after the mission rules and Imperial effects.

3) Both cards can take place "after the action".
Bleed must take place "after the action",
while Fortitude may take place "after the action" (as a During your activation ability)

If Fortitude is chosen to take place "after the action",
the timing instance is exactly the same. (I really think there's anything in the RRG or FAQ to counter this)

But, in any case, Bleed has to be resolved first, because it's a mission rules and its effect has to be resolved first! So, no cheating allowed
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pasi Ojala
Finland
Tampere
flag msg tools
Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
badge
The next total solar eclipse holiday in 2017 in the USA.
mbmbmbmbmb
Ulver000 wrote:
3) Both cards can take place "after the action".

No.

Bleeding triggers after an action is resolved.

Wookiee Fortitude does not have a trigger. Wookiee Fortitude can be used anytime during your activation as long as you are not resolving an action at the time.

Because they do not have the same trigger, the ability resolution order is not used at all.

You resolve the action fully, including all other rules and abilities that result from that action (including resolving bleeding). Only after that you choose what to do next. It can be one of the abilities you can perform during your activation (for example spending movement points to move the figure), or it can be another action, or it can be ending your activation.

An ability does not grow itself a trigger just because you want to or choose to activate it at a certain time. The ability defines what the trigger is.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jorgen Peddersen
Australia
Sydney
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Pasi has the important part here.

During your activation abilities with a more passive tone. When it says to perform them before or after your actions, it does not mean immediately before or after, while Bleeding does state immediately.

The before or after wording of 'during your activation' abilities is specifically meaning between. At some point before or at some point after, and not during. This is an important distinction and is the one we are trying to relate.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ulver
Greece
flag msg tools
Thanks for the extra clarifications!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.