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Arkham Horror: The Card Game» Forums » General

Subject: This games manual sucks. (A Rant) rss

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Rob Rob
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Bad rules books are a FFG hallmark.
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Donny Behne
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Oh look. This old chestnut.
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Donny Behne
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Cant think of one wrote:
kelann08 wrote:
Oh look. This old chestnut.


From a new user who doesn't frequent BGG and wouldn't know that. A new user who just wants to vent that after paying $40 for a game I was looking forward to, is packing it up and putting it away for later because of my extremely frustrating and negative experience with a badly written, over-wrought rule book for a relatively simple seeming game.
I'm sick of crappy rule books. Games are not cheap and I can't play them without a good rule book. I'm sick to death of having to go to the internet and look up FAQs that fix these badly written rule books. The rule book should not be a barrier to entry for a game.


We'll have to agree to disagree. I had no issue learning from the rulebook. I quite enjoy FFG rulebooks because4 they present information the way I process it. Our experiences are different. That's how it is. There's at least one thread about this on the front page of threads, maybe two. Perhaps those having difficulty can join forces to see what the issues are and help one another solve them. At least one person said it clicked for them, maybe they can help.
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David Ainsworth
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Have to agree with Donny.

I've never had an issue with the learn to play/reference method of rules. I didn't find Arkham Horror at all difficult to learn. It may just be a case of certain people responding differently to different ways of learning. Of course, instead of considering that we tend to just call the rules shit.
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Christian Kløve
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Robrob wrote:
Bad rules books are used to be a FFG hallmark.


FTFY

The rules for AH:tcg can in no way be compared to the rules for Arkham Horror (the board game) or even Lord of the Rings the card game - or any number or older FFG games for that matter. The new setup is much, much better for new players. That said, no matter how you structure your rulesbook(s), you will not be able to satisfy everyone. Despite being one of the easiest LCGs, ruleswise, this is still a fairly complex game, with a lot of details regarding keywords, timing, action windows and so on. For me this is part of the reason I enjoy these game - I like complex game and I like figuring out the intricacies of rules. Not everyone will and not everyone will like the way the rules are structured. That's fine, but don't compare this to the old FFG rules, because they are so far apart that we're not talking different ballparks, these are different sports.
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Joao F. Falaschi
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CletusVanDamme wrote:
Have to agree with Donny.

I've never had an issue with the learn to play/reference method of rules. I didn't find Arkham Horror at all difficult to learn. It may just be a case of certain people responding differently to different ways of learning. Of course, instead of considering that we tend to just call the rules shit.


I'm also fully with you. I opened up my game last week and after going through the Learn to Play I could very easily set up and start playing the first scenario. The Rules Reference is organized in such a way that makes it easy to find the topics you might have doubt with. At first I thought something was wrong with me getting into the game without any significant question, because this game has so many rules questions here in BGG, but then I figured out that people just respond differently to rules, just like David mentioned. What I do not understand is ranting about it...
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Koen Pater
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Ranting about it is perfectly fine. I personally found the rulebook decent (not great), and definitely a step down from Eldritch Horror. I can see how it could be a disappointment to others.
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Wiedewiet
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Hi newuser, remember you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!

Instead of your 'rant' and bashing FFG, you could have reflected on why you have a hard time processing this rulebook. This would have given us readers some insight in the different ways people learn, and if the FFG rules are accommodating these different learning styles enough (or how this could be improved).
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Scott Hill
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Cant think of one wrote:
This game is a frustrating pain in the a$% to learn. The "Learn to Play" manual is badly written and doesn't explain things well. This games manual actually does a very good job of replicating the fiddly-ness of the board game, but in a lighter card game based fashion. Yes, I play Arkham Horror and I am complaining about the manual for this game. I'm packing up the game and putting it away for the time being. You made a bad first impression AH LCG. So like your big brother in that regard.

Could you explain what aspects of the rules you are struggling with? Perhaps we can help.
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Paul Jennings
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It's a complicated game and I'm sure I've made mistakes in my playthrough of the campaign. I've had to reference the rules many times, but have been able to find a solution for the most part (and when I haven't a quick Google has helped).

This is my first LCG and I have had fun so far. I looked into LOTR but couldn't get my head around it on reading the rules; running through a few games on Vassal didn't help either. For Arkham, I read the rules and played through the first scenario on TTS first and it clicked almost immediately.

Give it another shot and keep in mind there is a big community willing to lend a hand (eg: BGG forums, ArkhamLCG Slack team, etc).
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Greenroxx
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I feel that the manual rules is bad written. I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly. Also, the dual use of the asset cards is not nicely written. I play a French version and even the translation is not great. Then i read the english original but it's the same :-|

But at least it s a very good game, like AH board game... hard to learn, but easy to play... after some iteration, the rules are nice and easy for both game.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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The rulebook is very well written. It's their best rulebook to date. I've found that, in general, people who say FFG does bad rule books have just problems with processing structured information laid out in a very concise and strict way (templating, keywording). In other words the rules focus on creating a certain framework and then operate within that framework to explain further. This way they strive to use the same language that was used during the design, in order to minimize inconsistencies.

Some people might prefer more explicit / relaxed / loosened way of explaining things.
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Dee
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RedGabber wrote:
I feel that the manual rules is bad written. I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly. [...]

Just for your mental checklist on the engage action and related situations:

- You spend an action to move an enemy at your location into your engagement area
- When using engage, you do take Attacks of Opportunity from any enemies that are already in your threat area
- You can have as many enemies in your threat area as you like
- You must engage 'Aloof' enemies before you can attack them
- In order to use an 'evade' action on an enemy, they must be in your threat area (note cards like Cunning Distraction / Stray Cat don't have this restriction)
- To get the Machete's +1 damage, the enemy must be in your threat area and be there alone
- If attacking an enemy in another investigator's threat area, you risk damaging them with a failed skill check, so the engage action is a way to avoid that possibility (at the cost of one of your own actions, obviously)

I think that about covers the utility of the engage action.
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Milen Krastev
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Only relatively easy for people who played, at least few other card games. All the rest have hard time grasping half the rules. :/
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Fernando Santos
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What really sucks is people's skills at Reading manuals.

A HUGE number of questions in this fórum could be answwered with just this simples words: RTFM.


Easy as that!
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Shakka
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Well, i had 0 problems with the manual.

I read nearly every rule question on BGG and was able to answer most without looking up stuff...

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Kaiwen Zhang
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Cant think of one wrote:
This game is a frustrating pain in the a$% to learn. The "Learn to Play" manual is badly written and doesn't explain things well. This games manual actually does a very good job of replicating the fiddly-ness of the board game, but in a lighter card game based fashion. Yes, I play Arkham Horror and I am complaining about the manual for this game. I'm packing up the game and putting it away for the time being. You made a bad first impression AH LCG. So like your big brother in that regard.



try watching a video, it helps a lot if you're a visual person:

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Nushura
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RedGabber wrote:
I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly.

This is very simple: pick up the rules reference and look for the term "engage". Enemy engagement is page 10, Engagement action is page 11.

Repeat that for any unclear term and .... you are done!
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Fernando Santos
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Nushura wrote:
RedGabber wrote:
I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly.

This is very simple: pick up the rules reference and look for the term "engage". Enemy engagement is page 10, Engagement action is page 11.

Repeat that for any unclear term and .... you are done!


And this is what i'm talking abou!

Everyone should Read The F... Manual!

Let´s make the RTFM movement!!!
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Kelly B
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Facsantos wrote:
Nushura wrote:
RedGabber wrote:
I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly.

This is very simple: pick up the rules reference and look for the term "engage". Enemy engagement is page 10, Engagement action is page 11.

Repeat that for any unclear term and .... you are done!


And this is what i'm talking abou!

Everyone should Read The F... Manual!

Let´s make the RTFM movement!!!


People should not be afraid to ask questions. Such a movement no matter how absurd serves nobody. Forums allow for clarification and discussion. RTFM might work for face to face or voice communication where time is at a premium but visiting, reading, and replying on a forum is voluntary.

I appreciate the confirmation that I'm playing a game correctly when I see a question and answer I read in the manual.

Fight for clarity if you are going to fight for anything.
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Doug London
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I've seen more rules questions on this games forums than just about any recent game on BGG. To me this implies the rule book isn't as clear as it could be. These same peopl aren't having as many problems with most other games.

While I feel I have a solid grasp of how to play now, there were some things that confused me at first.

The biggest problem on these forums though isn't the people asking questions (some of whom may not be hardened card gamers like the people saying "this game is so easy to learn", or "read the F... rules").

Some of the people asking questions don't have English as a first language and don't have rules in their native language. Some are younger kids.

Here's an idea: If people asking questions annoys you don't click on the threads. Why waste your precious time reading these questions threads and typing out a snarky response?

Be happy people are talking about the game, playing it and growing the community. The more people who talk about the more it sells and the more FFG will make.
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Joel Tamburo
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I also did not have issues with the rules. In our first play which is recorded in this forum, we did make a couple of mistakes. And in every case it turned out the issue was not the rules it was us, as the rules were clear and we just misread - it happens.

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Emily Dickinson
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DouglasLondon wrote:
I've seen more rules questions on this games forums than just about any recent game on BGG. To me this implies the rule book isn't as clear as it could be.


Alternative explanation: this is a very popular game luring in boardgamers that have never played a collectible card game.

I suspect it's a little of both.
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Christian Kløve
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DouglasLondon wrote:
I've seen more rules questions on this games forums than just about any recent game on BGG. To me this implies the rule book isn't as clear as it could be. These same peopl aren't having as many problems with most other games.

While I feel I have a solid grasp of how to play now, there were some things that confused me at first.

The biggest problem on these forums though isn't the people asking questions (some of whom may not be hardened card gamers like the people saying "this game is so easy to learn", or "read the F... rules").

Some of the people asking questions don't have English as a first language and don't have rules in their native language. Some are younger kids.

Here's an idea: If people asking questions annoys you don't click on the threads. Why waste your precious time reading these questions threads and typing out a snarky response?

Be happy people are talking about the game, playing it and growing the community. The more people who talk about the more it sells and the more FFG will make.


There is a big difference between asking rules questions and complaining about the rules being. I don't mind answering questions, though I do think users could sometimes do themselves a favor a browse through the already asked and answered questions before posting.

I suspect that many questions are caused by new players not realising the nature of the beast: this is in essence a ccg, which are notorious for complex, even convoluted rules. Couple that with an apparently very popular game, and you will get a lot of rules questions. This is a good thing: we can help each other and the game popular - and perhaps we, as a community, can become popular alongside it?

I remember similar situations when Lord of the Ring the card game and when Android: Netrunner came out.
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Fernando Santos
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happycatmachine wrote:
Facsantos wrote:
Nushura wrote:
RedGabber wrote:
I m still not sure to do the engage rule correctly.

This is very simple: pick up the rules reference and look for the term "engage". Enemy engagement is page 10, Engagement action is page 11.

Repeat that for any unclear term and .... you are done!


And this is what i'm talking abou!

Everyone should Read The F... Manual!

Let´s make the RTFM movement!!!


People should not be afraid to ask questions. Such a movement no matter how absurd serves nobody. Forums allow for clarification and discussion. RTFM might work for face to face or voice communication where time is at a premium but visiting, reading, and replying on a forum is voluntary.

I appreciate the confirmation that I'm playing a game correctly when I see a question and answer I read in the manual.

Fight for clarity if you are going to fight for anything.



I´m tottaly in for rules clarification, but Reading questions (and a lot of them) of people that just shows that one would one take the time to read the manual (sometimes even the first play one...), and this from players who are english speaken ones (at least the country shows the flag that i think speaks some kind of english..).

The main problema for me is that the majority of persons are lazy and get the game, start playing, just read the rules lightly and go along and then complain that they do not understand something or the manuais badly writen.

Or the problema reallys is me...

Your pick, i mantain for a RTFM movement, we should try to teach people how to fish, not to just handle them!
 
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