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Twilight Struggle» Forums » General

Subject: Cheezy Win? rss

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John Clemente
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I recently won a game on Steam, after which my opponent said "That's a cheezy way to win." (His spelling, not mine.)

The situation:

I was Soviet. It was the end of turn 7. The board was fairly even, I was maybe a little ahead.

As USA, he played Lone Gunman, which showed me he also had Muslim Revolution. I, of course, used the one op to coup a BG and won on defcon suicide.

My question: Is this "a cheezy way to win"? My thought is the threat of DS is part of the game and causes a player to make decisions he would rather avoid. For instance, my opponent clearly did not want to play Muslim instead of Lone Gunman.

If this example is not , then what is an example of "a cheezy way to win"?
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Mikhail Dektyarev
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Defcon Suicide is an important mechanics, and it's why CIA, Lone Gunman, Grain Sales, etc. give you ops.

There is no such thing as "cheezy way to win" as long as you follow rules.
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Kristian Thy
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Johneboy2 wrote:
My question: Is this "a cheezy way to win"?


No, it's a perfectly valid win. Your opponent sounds like he's new to TS.
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Mattias Elfström
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turbothy wrote:
Johneboy2 wrote:
My question: Is this "a cheezy way to win"?


No, it's a perfectly valid win. Your opponent sounds like he's new to TS.

I agree.

In a ftf game I would allow my opponent to take back his event.
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John Clemente
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I agree. If I was teaching a newbie how to play, ftf, then I would let the player redo. But on Steam I don't know his level or experience with the game, so I play to win.
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Jacob Williams
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I think it is cheezy, but valid. I like more traditional wina.
 
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foksieloy
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It's not cheesy. He has to play around that card. If he can't, he is not competent enough to win.
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Jamie Pollock
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Definitely not cheezy. You can't expect to play out CIA or Lone Gunman when Defcon is 2. The whole point of those cards is they are tough to get rid of.

Face to face you might give you opponent the chance to rethink. Online, it's tough titty.
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Dan Hyer
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Making the other guy accidentally blow up the world is how many games end and something that you should definitely work towards.

Not a cheesy win in my book.

I learned about several of those cards the hard way, and didn't realize what I had done until I saw the look on my opponents face. I remember playing Grain Embargo in particular.
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Snooze Fest
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Definitely a cheesy win, for a player brand new to the game and playing face to face. Once you're familiar with the rules and defcon suicide, it's a completely legitimate win!
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David Gibbs
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Completely legitimate way to win. Defcon suicide is part of the game, and players need to play to avoid it.
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Ziemowit Pazderski
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mihaild wrote:

There is no such thing as "cheezy way to win" as long as you follow rules.


Ekhm... Comecon Trap?
Ok, I guess that's semi-legitimate, but what about a variation of the above - a T1AR1 realign in Europe at 0 modifier? I do recall a certain ancient game against a certain cheese-loving friend of mine, who managed to clear my West Germany (4 inf), Italy (3) and Iran (1) all in T1AR1. Despite the fact I won almost all of our games at the time, I wasn't able to recover from that.
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Jamie Pollock
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Ziemowit wrote:
mihaild wrote:

There is no such thing as "cheezy way to win" as long as you follow rules.


Ekhm... Comecon Trap?
Ok, I guess that's semi-legitimate, but what about a variation of the above - a T1AR1 realign in Europe at 0 modifier? I do recall a certain ancient game against a certain cheese-loving friend of mine, who managed to clear my West Germany (4 inf), Italy (3) and Iran (1) all in T1AR1. Despite the fact I won almost all of our games at the time, I wasn't able to recover from that.


Yeah, I'd never heard of this until I was the reciprocal of it in an online game against a guy who just played USSR. He used NATO to realign the whole of WGer and also scooped all 3 Inf out of Italy. Clearly when the conditions are right it can be a major ballache for the USA - do they take WGer and Italy and pray to the dice gods, or do they forgo WGer and play for France....
 
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Mikhail Dektyarev
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Comecon Trap can be easily defused if you recognize it (Defectors, D&C, Marshall Plan, or just 4 Italy 2 Greece 1 Austria setup).

Without Comecon Trap, USSR is going to realign at +0, which isn't effective. Yes, there is a small chance to empty WG and Italy (or even Iran), but it's much more likely US will be able to repair damage with less ops then USSR used and also take a foothold in Asia. And USSR definitely isn't going to start an ops war in West Europe with Truman in deck.

Yes, you can bet game on T1AR1, having almost guaranteed win with small probability, and almost guaranteed lose with much larger chance.
 
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Wretched Victims
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Certainly valid way of playing or losing! MR is pretty bad for US ME interests, but it is better than an immediate loss. At least with MR he would have got 4 ops to either lessen the impact in the ME, or force the US to play in a different area in AR7.

Never encountered the comecon trap before, might try it!
 
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King in Green
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Oddly enough the initial realign at +0 vs. 4 inf in WG is actually quite efficient, something to try when purged down to 1 ops sometime perhaps .
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Jamie Pollock
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Paul Harding wrote:
Oddly enough the initial realign at +0 vs. 4 inf in WG is actually quite efficient, something to try when purged down to 1 ops sometime perhaps .


If you have Austria it's plus 1 which means west Germany is likely to go.
 
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ray donovan
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I once lost a game turn 2 or 3 as USA vs a beginner. I headlined olympics, he headlined duck and cover. How do you call this victory?
 
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Kris Wei
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Paul Harding wrote:
Oddly enough the initial realign at +0 vs. 4 inf in WG is actually quite efficient, something to try when purged down to 1 ops sometime perhaps .


You get the point!

Moves like these realignments is usually called 'abreact move', when you're with all hand of 1 (purged) and none of 4 de-cards, you might do these, hoping a 6-1 to abreact the anger from your heart

Also -1 realignments against De-stalinsation do the same.
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Michael Valentine

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Paul Harding wrote:
Oddly enough the initial realign at +0 vs. 4 inf in WG is actually quite efficient, something to try when purged down to 1 ops sometime perhaps .


Even against a target of 4 ops, a 0 drm realign results in less than 1 op removed on average.
 
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Michael Valentine

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Johneboy2 wrote:
If this example is not , then what is an example of "a cheezy way to win"?


It was turn 10, ar7 and my opponent on steam was certainly going to lose in final scoring. He had a lot of time left on his clock and I only had a couple of mins left on mine. He exited the game without forfeiting and signed out. About 15 mins later as his clock is running down he sneaks back in and makes his final move, obviously hoping that I'd get frustrated waiting and leave the game. I waited until seconds left to make my last move just to get his hope up and annoy him. If his plan had worked, then that would be a cheezy way to win.
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Ben Kyo
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MichaelVal wrote:
Paul Harding wrote:
Oddly enough the initial realign at +0 vs. 4 inf in WG is actually quite efficient, something to try when purged down to 1 ops sometime perhaps .


Even against a target of 4 ops, a 0 drm realign results in less than 1 op removed on average.

0.9444 or 17/18 to be precise. Not that shabby.
 
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Jason Tan
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I think your opponent is just new and weren't aware of the Defcon trap. All part of the TS learning curve.

In my 2nd game I was taught a harsh lesson that from then on I always kept my eyes on the Defcon track whenever I play TS. I played "Missile Envy" into my opponent's "Olympic Games" which obviously he chose to boycott so I lost the game. We've been going at each other for almost 2 hours (newbies) and its a real tug of war up until that absolute disaster of a move. It felt cheesy to me at that time but I soon came to realize there are a lot of situations in TS that could play into the Defcon trap. I even learn to exploit some of them sometimes

"Wargames" is also another card that can catch a lot of players by surprise if they're new to the game.
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Ben Kyo
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inimora wrote:
I once lost a game turn 2 or 3 as USA vs a beginner. I headlined olympics, he headlined duck and cover. How do you call this victory?

Hilarious.
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Michael Cabral
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MichaelVal wrote:
Johneboy2 wrote:
If this example is not , then what is an example of "a cheezy way to win"?


It was turn 10, ar7 and my opponent on steam was certainly going to lose in final scoring. He had a lot of time left on his clock and I only had a couple of mins left on mine. He exited the game without forfeiting and signed out. About 15 mins later as his clock is running down he sneaks back in and makes his final move, obviously hoping that I'd get frustrated waiting and leave the game. I waited until seconds left to make my last move just to get his hope up and annoy him. If his plan had worked, then that would be a cheezy way to win.


Great job trolling the troll. cool Hopefully that dissuades him from attempting that again. At the very least you made him waste his time further just to try to win a game with underhanded tactics.
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