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Crisis» Forums » Rules

Subject: Influence Card - Strike rss

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Joao Rodrigues
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Hi.

I just got my game today, but I've played it once over Tabletopia and yesterday I've played two games with a friend that received his yesterday. First of all let me say I really enjoy this game. Feels fresh, feels challenging and feels very thematic.

As usual, in our first and second plays of every game there are some rules that we are not sure of how exactly it is supposed to work, but we tend to agree in a point of view and move on. However, we had one discussion while playing the "Strike" card that divided the table.

The scenario was this: I had noe employee with me (it was the second round and I got the temp in the first round), and then one player played the Strike card right at the beginning of the operations phase, which says that every other player must deactivate an employee for the duration of this round.

I had none with me, but I would hire an employee when we got there. Is this employee supposed to deactivated as well?

In my point of view, I shouldn't deactivate this employee. The card effect says that every other player must deactivate one, but when the card was played I had none employee. I got the employee later, so it is my understanding that this employee shouldn't suffer the effect of this card that was played before he arrived.

The table got divided and I'm not very good at convincing people, so I did deactivated my just recently hired employee, but I would really like a confirmation on this one.

I know the card says that the employee gets deactivated untill the rest of the round, but I understand that the effect happens only when the card is played.

How do you guys read this?
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Peter Hazlewood
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Bromsgrove
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We read this the same as you, that the event gets resolved immediately. So, you had no employees and therefore don't get penalised. Sotiris and Pantelis are very active on here so wouldn't be surprised if they come back very quickly with a definitive answer.
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M. S.
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
Hi.

The scenario was this: I had noe employee with me (it was the second round and I got the temp in the first round), and then one player played the Strike card right at the beginning of the operations phase, which says that every other player must deactivate an employee for the duration of this round.

I had none with me, but I would hire an employee when we got there. Is this employee supposed to deactivated as well?



Strike -as said on the card- lasts for the whole round and not just in the moment that the card was played.
So if I got you right: You had none worker, but hired in the same round later on a worker. This worker has to be deactivated for the end of the round.
To be more precise: It´s better to deactivate a worker during the production phase. During this phase the worker is needed but is going on strike.
As you already said: Strike is an event that is alsting the whole round. Thematically the workers ONLY work in the production phase. In this phase they go on strike. Since the hiring of a worker is before the production phase it`n not having an effect for the moment but later on during his work nin the production phase, since he is on strike for the duration of this round.
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Joao Rodrigues
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Thanks, Peter and Braz. Glad to see that in here this is also conflicting...

You see Braz, I understand the entire round part, I really do. But again, the way I understand this things goes, when the card is played its effect happen. When the card is played, everyone should deactivate an employee and that employee deactivated when the card was played would remain deactivated the entire round.

Going thematically, in my point of view, the employers union declared a strike at the moment the card was played, and the already hired employees are all in the middle of it, one of them joined the strike.

The other employees at the line are looking for jobs, they are looking for work. They will not get on strike. This is so much so that every other player will be able to hire a new employee this same round and this new employee will be able to work, so I don't see how it would be fair for me to have to deactivate this guy that was just hired as he was on a strike, that started before he was employed.

The way I see it would be best to go my way, in order for the player to be more tactical at when to play this card.

Anyway, thanks for the answers again. Looking forward for our friends Sotiris and Pantelis to come and say what was their intention with it.
 
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M. S.
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Johnnymaxx wrote:
Thanks, Peter and Braz. Glad to see that in here this is also conflicting...

You see Braz, I understand the entire round part, I really do. But again, the way I understand this things goes, when the card is played its effect happen. When the card is played, everyone should deactivate an employee and that employee deactivated when the card was played would remain deactivated the entire round.


Ok....let me ask you something: why do you think that the wording "effect lasts the Entire round" was used on the card, when the only time point in the game that you are using workers is the phase in which you put them to the companies ( =during the production phase).
In other words: it would have been enough to say, that a worker is going on strike. That worker, if there is one, would go on strike in the next production phase. Before the production phase you do not need him.
BUT it is written that the effect of the card is lasting the entire round. So this is explicitly mentioned. In my understanding the effect is "the strike of workers" in general. And this strike is lasting for the entire round.

In your case the wording " lasts for the entire round" would be useless, since the only time point that you are using workers is in the production phase. So if it would be your example the addon wording " entire round" would not make any sense....you do not deaktivate a worker only in the event phase and in a later phase of the same round activate it again......the only time point in which you need workers is in the production phase. In the production phase you are assigning workers to the companies......during this step you have to deactivate 1 worker not before, since the effect of deactivating is lasting for the whole round.

I mean you can play it as you want, but I' m pretty sure that I got it right, since otherwise the wording " entire round" would be useless.

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Joao Rodrigues
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My answer is that this wording is there to indicate that you have to choose now one employee that will be deactivated the entire round, you can't choose another one later on or something like that. I see your point when you say that it would be unnecessary to have this written, but I also know that in gaming, sometimes it is best to go overboard and be kinda redundant just to make sure no one will understand anything different.

But don't get me wrong, I understand your point, just like in the table I was playing with 4 people, it was me and other guy defending my point and the 2 other players defending the point you are making, and we ran with your point.

My intention is not to "play as I want", I don't like doing that, I'm very opposed to "house rules" because I don't believe that I know better about the game, after 1 or 2 plays, then the designers that spent 2 years or so designing and playtesting it at exhaustion. My intention with this thread is really to get what the designers really meant, what is their intention, so I can play correctly the game that they intended to make.
 
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M. S.
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Again: the wording is pretty clear for me and is having almost no room for interpretation, since the strike is lasting the entire round and not only during the event phase.

So what would be the sentence, if it would be the way that you've meant? It would be: "Workers go on strike. Please deactivate a worker." ......no need for "entire round", but as it is the way it is written, this event is lasting the entire round.....

Anyhow: you want the feedback directly from the designers and that' s ok.....it would have been much easier for me if you would have said it earlier, that you're only accepting the designer" s opinion...but it' s ok for me.....so I'm out.

Have fun with the game and do not interpret too much in games...just take sentences as they are......this would be my advice.

Best regards
Mario
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Peter Hazlewood
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That's a bit harsh Braz. I imagine he was hoping for a consensus. If 5 people came on and all said the same thing then he'd take notice; but 2 people have come on and disagreed. All you've done is reiterate the same points that they considered while playing so it's not that you're being ignored. I am still of the opinion that events happen at the start of the round.

Quote:
Have fun with the game and do not interpret too much in games...just take sentences as they are......this would be my advice.


That's just patently unhelpful. This event is ambiguous so we are not 'interpreting', just clarifying.
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M. S.
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Quote:
That's a bit harsh Braz.

It wasn`t meant like this....
but I know several people in my gaming group who like to debate. You can give them any argument, they will never see another alternative as they want to see by themselfs.

Quote:
That's just patently unhelpful. This event is ambiguous so we are not 'interpreting', just clarifying.

I think that I´ve explained my opinion and gave arguments over and over again and trying to help. If you see this as "unhelpful"...well.......then it`s like it is. shake

....and you are interpretating...of course you do...this event is not ambiguous if you take the card as it is

Reasons for this:
1) the event is lasting the whole round...not just in the event phase
2) if it would be only in the event phase that you are deactivating workers it would make no sense to emphasize that the event lasts for the entire round, since there is only (!) one action round in which you are using workers (=producrion phase).
3) if it would have been meant in the way as it`s a one time event during the event phase the wording "entire round" would not have been implemented
4) again: there is not much room for interoretation in my point of view, since the wording "lasts entire round" is there.
5) the event is a "strike". During a strike the people do not work in the production phase. Since this card (incl. event) is lasting from the beginning of the round till the end of the round you can pull out the card at any timepoint during the game....read it`s effect....and fullfill the effect at any time(!). Why? Because the strike (=card/effect) is lasting the entire (!) round. ...it`s active....for the whole/entire round. You can pull out the card after phase 1...after phase 2...after phase 3...after any phase and read it....the effect is active for the whole round....BUT triggers mechanically only in the production phase.


Think about it - please take your time:
If this would be a one time effect -> you just deactivate the given workers, that you`re having right now......then the effect would mechanically hit the production phase (the phase in which you assign workers). If it would not hit the production phase, but only the event phase then the card would be without any effect at all, correct?!

So why should it not only then called just "Deactivate a worker"?

You`re having the wording "entire round" somehow written on the card (I do not have the card with me right now - so I´m missing the exact wording). It´s there but you are discussing with me like it would not have been on the card.

I think I was more than clear. If the designer meant it the other way then I would wonder on the "lasts entire round" wording. But as this wording is there....it should be clear.

I´m not angry but I´m feeling like talking against a wall.
I can give one argument after another but without any effect. So finally you want to hear the designers opinion......other opinions are noticed but without any effect. That`s ok.
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Mr Avers
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Since the only requirement for the Strike card is that it needs to be played before production, wouldn't it be easier to make players aware of that (especially in the first 1 or 2 learning games) and have them play the card later on during the turn?

Prevents any kind of 'discussion' and seems to be in line with the playstyle intended by the designers.
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GhundiPI wrote:
Since the only requirement for the Strike card is that it needs to be played before production, wouldn't it be easier to make players aware of that (especially in the first 1 or 2 learning games) and have them play the card later on during the turn?

Prevents any kind of 'discussion' and seems to be in line with the playstyle intended by the designers.


Events are usually played on the first step of each round. This helps you to plan your next steps better. If the card would have been layed out only at the beginning of the prdoction phase I would not have any alternative plan for this worker who is on strike.
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Joao Rodrigues
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Hi Braz. Look, I'm sorry if I've sounded harsh like saying "I will only accept the designers opinion". This is not what I meant at all. There is no guarantee the designers will ever come to this thread, so I would be really dumb to only accept the designers point of view. Peter is right, I've wrote this actually looking for other people's take on this. If there was a consensus, fine, but as you can see here 2 people answered: 1 read it as I read, and the other read it as you read. So just like what happened in my gaming table, it is divided. What this really really small universe of only 6 people (you and Peter here, plus me and my 3 friends that were playing) is that the card is ambiguous, because 3 people read it one way, and 3 people read it the other way.

Please, forgive me also if I'm looking like a wall to you. I am acknowledging you. I do see your point. This is why I'm giving thumbs up to your posts. Also, I do feel exactly like you, that people shouldn't try to read much in games and should just read what the card says, but I do understand the card is saying one thing, while you are understanding other thing. Again, in our table, we ran with your version of the story, becaus it does makes sense. I can see this as being the possible way the card was meant to be played. But I have the right to express what I think as well, and the part you are focusing on and saying is clear as day is the "lasts entire round" part, for me the part that is clear as day and does not open room for interpretation is the "must deactivate an employee" part.

The whole text of the card reads:
"Gain 1 VP.
Each other player must deactivate an Employee for the duration of this round.

Play this carde before 13. Production begins."

So, I hate to keep repeating myself, but just to make the point again this time next to the full card's text: for me, the "must deactivate an Employee..." part is an immediate effect. This is the immediate action. It says RIGHT NOW deactivate an Employee. If I have no Employee to deactivate, I can't do it. The rest of the card says that this Employee keeps deactivated for the duration of this round. For me it is not saying that the "deactivate an Employee" effect last the entire round, it is only saying that the deactivated Employee is deactivated the entire round.

For me, the wording "the entire round" is there because you can play this card at any moment of the game before phase 13 begins, so if you play it early because you want the 1 VP for whatever reason (maybe you want to take a Loan and don't want to go down on the VP Track), then you'll get your VP and everyone must right now deactivate an Employee that will not come back to activation during the entire round, so he will not be able to work in any of your factories. Maybe this sentence is there to stop picking players to go like "Hey, this card was played on phase 10, but the card could be played right before phase 13. Does this mean that he will be deactivated only on phase 10? Will I be able to use him on phase 13?" I know, this is just a wild example, but I'm sure you've encountered people like that on your gaming days. Sometimes you do have to sound redundant on the cards to make sure these kind of players won't try to push things for their benefit (and I do understand that you think that this is exactly what I'm doing with this thread... sorry for that)

If you wait for after the Hiring Employee phase (phase 9), then there is nothing to discuss. Even if I had just hired the Employee, I would have to deactivate him and accept that he is on strike now. It is a question of timing. The player CAN wait for after the Employees are hired to play the card. He decided to play it before. I really don't see how the "deactivate an Employee" part should be treated as happening every single phase from now on, because the card is not saying the action is for the entire round, it says the Employee you choose remains deactivated for the entire round.

Again, I'm sorry if I'm sounding stubborn to you. I started this reply thinking in saying only a few words to let you know that I am in fact ackowledging you and that your opinion on this is valid and sound, but I ended up writing a lot again, hopefully to reinforce both of these points, that I am acknowledging you, but the card is ambiguous because right now, so far in my tiny tiny universe, it is 50-50 on how the card should be read.

Thanks for all your replies so far. It would be nice if someone else (not only the designers) could get their take on this as well.
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Joao Rodrigues
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GhundiPI wrote:
Since the only requirement for the Strike card is that it needs to be played before production, wouldn't it be easier to make players aware of that (especially in the first 1 or 2 learning games) and have them play the card later on during the turn?

Prevents any kind of 'discussion' and seems to be in line with the playstyle intended by the designers.

This is exactly what I said on the table. I said "hey, you are playing this right now, so later when I hire my worker, this worker won't be affected by this."

And the other players went with the "but it says 'lasts the entire round'in it." talk.

By the end of the discussion, the player playing the card just said "OK, then imagine I'm playing this after you hired your worker, OK?" which is not exactly the same thing, but I hate to waste time discussing instead of playing, so I just accepted it. But then I decided to bring this question here.
 
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Pantelis Bouboulis
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Well, I wouldn't expect so much debate over this issue. But its good to know that you are enjoying the game that much. Both me and Sotiris would like to thank you all for all those comments. They give us a better understanding on how the rules are interpreted and what we can do to make the rules more clear in the future.

To the point: The Strike influence card was meant to be valid for the duration of the entire round and especially during the production phase. Thus, when the production phase begins each player must deactivate one employee. We actually expected that most players would have waited until the end of phase 4.12 before they would actually played this card. However, if you acquire your first employee after another player has played the card you still have to deactivate one employee at the production phase. This is required in order to be fair with all players.

Let me give you an example:
Player A has 2 employees
Player B has no employees
Player C has 3 employees
Player C plays the card at the beginning of the round.
Player A and B get one employee each.
Thus, player A can use up to 2 employees and player B cannot use any employees at the production phase.
If we interpreted the event as Joao suggests, then player A would have lost one employee (for the duration of the round). On the contrary, player B would have been immuned to the card. So, while both players did the same action, this action wouldn't have the same result on both of them.

We are sorry for all the confusion we may have brought to you. We are planning to compile a FAQ that adresses all these issues.
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Joao Rodrigues
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Hi.

Thank you for this. Well, that settles then.

Once again, thank you everyone for your input here. It is like you said, usually player will wait untill phase 12 to play this card and then there is absolutely no confusion, but when it was played on the beginning of the round just because the player would want to gain that 1 VP and stay ahead of the other player that just tied in after last round's exporting phase, I got confused.

Thank you for your clarification.

But just to make sure then, even if the card was played at the beginning of the round, can I wait for the actual production phase to decide which of my employees will get on strike and get deactivated?

And now, just to be really picky and annoying, (because I don't believe there is such thing as a 'dumb question'... lol) when you say "employee" you mean any employee, right? Even the temp employee that looks like a robot also get affected by this card, right?
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Pantelis Bouboulis
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Johnnymaxx wrote:

But just to make sure then, even if the card was played at the beginning of the round, can I wait for the actual production phase to decide which of my employees will get on strike and get deactivated?

Definitely, you can decide which employee will be deactivated on the actual production phase. Just calculate which employee will have the minimum effect on your production. In general, we wanted to minimize the damage to the players affected by cards.


Johnnymaxx wrote:

And now, just to be really picky and annoying, (because I don't believe there is such thing as a 'dumb question'... lol) when you say "employee" you mean any employee, right? Even the temp employee that looks like a robot also get affected by this card, right?


An interesting point!! (And I was thinking which of you guys are going to ask about this ).
Yes, the temp employee also gets affected by this card. Thus if you have an engineer +3 and a banker +2 you can take the temp employee and deactivate that one.
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