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The Others» Forums » Strategy

Subject: What To Do About Monsters Piling Up In One District? rss

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Ewan Anderson
United Kingdom
Ipswich
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Hi there,
Especially in district spaces, what is it best for the heroes to do when, say, there are 3 or 4 abominations in a single district space?
That's a lot of dice for the Overlord player to roll, and someone has to take the first risk, and engage them all in hand to hand combat, as you can't take them out with ranged.

What would people suggest?

Putting all your monsters together like this, is particularly dangerous in the Redemption missions, where you are having to venture into buildings to rescue civilians.
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Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
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Several options:

1) Some heroes have ways of getting you in or out with abilities, thus you can use those, get in then get out with just an extra wound.

2) Orbital strike

3) Just get equipment. Even if one person goes down, you'll take a lot more bastards with you.

4) Some heroes have ways of doing auto-kills.

5) Raise your corruption. It can get you defenses as well.

6) Don't let additional monsters get in the building. Seal it off so that nobody is else will along.
 
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Judgement Dave
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7) Some abilities (such as Rose's) let you move monsters out of the pile.
 
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Kēvin Zoren
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Montana
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We played the game for the first time this past week and everyone pretty much hated it due to this. The Sins player spent every reaction stacking monsters and his avatar in one room across the map, and it was the only room that allowed use of the orbital strike. It also was the room with the objectives. We couldn't find a way to pry him out of there, we couldn't have gotten there quick enough to stop him, and every time we used the ability to move a creature out, he'd just react and move it back in. We ended up quitting early because nobody was having anything resembling fun.


We played again the next day and I took on the Sins position in a corruption mission. The previous games sins player was convinced that the game wasn't balanced and the only way for the Sin player to win was turtling quickly. I defied this by playing very aggressively and using my cards more effectively. It resulted in a relatively quick Sin victory for Sloth. We enjoyed our second play through more and I saw a lot of things the FAITH players could have done to counter my strategy, it gave me enough hope to try the game a few more times before making a final judgement.

That said, there's a big thread on this that you should check out - if you look down the forum a bit it sticks out because turtle is spelled wrong in the title. It doesn't give very satisfying answers in my opinion (it's mostly just 'don't let them' or 'your sins player shouldn't play that way') but it is a robust discussion. I think there are instances where it's just something that can happen based on the map. If there's only one option for orbital strike, the Sins player jumps on it, makes sure to keep an objective there, and just turtles all to hell - there isn't much you can do other than sacrifice heroes in hopes of sniping an objective or watch the clock tick down until you lose. I don't know that it's a design flaw of the game; I wouldn't say that based on one bad experience. It certainly does seem like a design flaw in at least one mission (It was the terror mission where the SINS player is plopping down tokens each round, map A).

Just my 2 cents.
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Christoph Weber
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thatguy wrote:
We played the game for the first time this past week and everyone pretty much hated it due to this. The Sins player spent every reaction stacking monsters and his avatar in one room across the map, and it was the only room that allowed use of the orbital strike. It also was the room with the objectives. We couldn't find a way to pry him out of there, we couldn't have gotten there quick enough to stop him, and every time we used the ability to move a creature out, he'd just react and move it back in. We ended up quitting early because nobody was having anything resembling fun.


We played again the next day and I took on the Sins position in a corruption mission. The previous games sins player was convinced that the game wasn't balanced (he gets that way) and the only way for the Sin player to win was turtling quickly. I defied this by playing very aggressively and using my cards more effectively. It resulted in a relatively quick Sin victory for Sloth. We enjoyed our second play through more and I saw a lot of things the FAITH players could have done to counter my strategy, it gave me enough hope to try the game a few more times before making a final judgement.

That said, there's a big thread on this that you should check out - if you look down the forum a bit it sticks out because turtle is spelled wrong in the title. It doesn't give very satisfying answers in my opinion (it's mostly just 'don't let them' or 'your sins player shouldn't play that way') but it is a robust discussion. I think there are instances where it's just something that can happen based on the map. If there's only one option for orbital strike, the Sins player jumps on it, makes sure to keep an objective there, and just turtles all to hell - there isn't much you can do other than sacrifice heroes in hopes of sniping an objective or watch the clock tick down until you lose. I don't know that it's a design flaw of the game; I wouldn't say that based on one bad experience. It certainly does seem like a design flaw in at least one mission (It was the terror mission where the SINS player is plopping down tokens each round, map A).

Just my 2 cents.


You know what, I guess we can take your example to not only show that the piling tactic is less efficient than other ways to play as Sin, but also a bad idea in general in many cases.
If I'm not mistaken, your scenario was Haven's Last Stand, Map A. That is the only terror story with only one orbital strike city tile.

So, on this map, there are a lot of upgrade caches (5 on four different districts), allowing the heroes to upgrade quite a lot in a short amount of time, and since it is also the first mission to do so the FAITH team would naturally just do that.

So, the next mission is to either kill # abominations or to clear # altars on monster-free spaces. Now, if the sin player had already started piling up monsters in one of the altar spaces, as in your case, it should be obvious not to chose the altar mission, but to kill those 3 or 4 abominations.
With the upgraded heroes, it shouldn't be that hard to take enough corruption with one hero with the right gear and then move in there on a suicide mission where their only job is to land 8 attacks before they are inevitably killed.
And if that fails, the second hero to be sent in there should finish the job.

As the district in question also features a metro token, any fire or corruption tokens lying around in there shouldn't be a problem.

Alternatively, start by teleporting one abomination out (as you have done), but to a space where a hero is waiting, so that the monster can't just get back to the turtling district with the reaction, and then kill it. That way, the suicide mission is not that hard, with only 6 hits needed.

The last mission has the heroes kill # marked monsters. Assuming the sin player choses the avatar, the controller and two acolytes, those will be a lot harder to kill, but you could generally try the same tactic as above, and since executing the last mission while losing the last hero results in a FAITH win, you would have at least two, more likely three heroes that can go in there and try to take out as many marked monsters as they can before being killed.
Apart from that, if one hero was standing on the nest token next to the district, the Avatar wouldn't be able to get into the building in the first place.

This, as mentioned several times already, wouldn't make the game much fun, while at the same time giving the FAITH player a very good chance to win - I guess a better chance than using any other tactic.

So, to summarize, I believe the piling up tactic might work better in some scenarios (e.g. the one in the "trutling" thread), but is really rubbish in others. So, not only does it bog the game down and suck most of the fun out of it, it's also in many cases an inferior tactic.

I guess people try to pull it off because it seems like an easy winning tactic and they are too lazy to think of other ways, but why play a game as the Sin player to begin with if you're not interested in adjusting your plan to the game flow and trying out more elaborate ways of getting heroes killed?
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Tomer Mlynarsky
Israel
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webs1 wrote:

This, as mentioned several times already, wouldn't make the game much fun, while at the same time giving the FAITH player a very good chance to win - I guess a better chance than using any other tactic.

Thank you so much. That's exactly what I've been trying to say in both threads. Turtle method is not a good method at all.

It scares new players who are afraid to bust things open, but in most cases it will work against the Sin.

Heck, I'll even give the opposite strategy than yours, if the Sin keeps getting monsters in the district, then he is clearly not attacking the heroes and the sin shouldn't have a lot of reactions left. They should have relatively wound free characters so they can go for upgrades that give defense (rather than just blind offense) and just send heroes one after the other.

Sure, the Sin player could roll 13+ dice (or even 20+ if the Avatar is there) but with defensive upgrades, 0 wounds (you have time to heal), good basic defense and corruption, you have a decent chance to survive this while taking out 1-2 lower monsters.

Then, the next guy walks in, he has less enemies to fight and gain an additional bonus die from the previous guy. If he can't finish them off, the third guy walks in to an even weaker district with +2 dice etc





The point is, you can even play defense yourself and still beat the turtle. It's just not that good of a strategy as people think it is.

webs1 wrote:

So, to summarize, I believe the piling up tactic might work better in some scenarios (e.g. the one in the "trutling" thread), but is really rubbish in others. So, not only does it bog the game down and suck most of the fun out of it, it's also in many cases an inferior tactic.

Yes, as I even said in the other thread, in that specific scenario, the problem isn't the monsters. It's the fact that the scenario gives the sin player fire tokens every round and has firemen to boot. It's the fact that the building is on fire making it difficult to even enter that's the issue. (And that players took way too long to allow it to happen to begin with).

webs1 wrote:

I guess people try to pull it off because it seems like an easy winning tactic and they are too lazy to think of other ways, but why play a game as the Sin player to begin with if you're not interested in adjusting your plan to the game flow and trying out more elaborate ways of getting heroes killed?

Exactly. The Sin players is literally about reactions.
It's about identifying the heroes' game plan and break it apart - not the other way around.
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Kēvin Zoren
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webs1 wrote:

Alternatively, start by teleporting one abomination out (as you have done), but to a space where a hero is waiting, so that the monster can't just get back to the turtling district with the reaction, and then kill it. That way, the suicide mission is not that hard, with only 6 hits needed.

The last mission has the heroes kill # marked monsters. Assuming the sin player choses the avatar, the controller and two acolytes, those will be a lot harder to kill, but you could generally try the same tactic as above, and since executing the last mission while losing the last hero results in a FAITH win, you would have at least two, more likely three heroes that can go in there and try to take out as many marked monsters as they can before being killed.
Apart from that, if one hero was standing on the nest token next to the district, the Avatar wouldn't be able to get into the building in the first place.


Chris,

Thanks for that reply, you point out a lot of things that as new players we hadn't considered. We did get to the final mission in this scenario (kill the marked). You were right, the Sin player picked the controller and avatar as two of his marked targets. The only problem I forsee with using the strategy of moving monsters out to a space with a player so that they couldn't just run back (very good idea) is that if I'm not mistaken, the character can only move aboms and minions out. This means you have the controller, avatar, and any number of minions to weed through,all buffed with the pentagram tokens he'd piled into the room. Meanwhile the clock on the scenario continues to tick down while you pull two creatures out a round to kill him. Still, that tactic is a hell of a lot better than anything we could think of being so new to the system. I appreciate your insight!


Tomer- I take your point and more games will likely show that you're 100% correct - turtling up in most scenarios is likely a losing strategy. In this one game it ended up happening, we couldn't see a way around it and it was the death of fun.

 
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Dan Harrow
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thatguy wrote:

Thanks for that reply, you point out a lot of things that as new players we hadn't considered. We did get to the final mission in this scenario (kill the marked). You were right, the Sin player picked the controller and avatar as two of his marked targets. The only problem I forsee with using the strategy of moving monsters out to a space with a player so that they couldn't just run back (very good idea) is that if I'm not mistaken, the character can only move aboms and minions out. This means you have the controller, avatar, and any number of minions to weed through,all buffed with the pentagram tokens he'd piled into the room. Meanwhile the clock on the scenario continues to tick down while you pull two creatures out a round to kill him. Still, that tactic is a hell of a lot better than anything we could think of being so new to the system. I appreciate your insight!

I think part of the point he was making is that you can pull the other marked enemies out of the pile, so that you can kill them where your heroes are safer. Once you've taken them out (you can also use the Orbital Laser for this), then your last 2 marked enemies are the Avatar and Controller. Since the Sin player can't roll shields and you get to choose which enemies you damage, you can dive into the remaining pile (expecting to die), but do enough damage to kill the Avatar and/or Controller. And another dive, if it's necessary, should seal you the game.
 
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