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Pax Pamir» Forums » General

Subject: This game hasn't worked in my group. Help rss

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Mark Taraba
United States
Lake in the Hills
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I just got the expansion so I was wondering if people had tips on how to make this game work. I've only played 4 games of it, but they ended at the first topple. I've played it with different sets of people who are mainly eurogamers and every game seems to fall down to who happens to be in the lead when the first Topple card comes out. Changing the regime only makes someone different win and doesn't get us past the first topple. I've even suggested we put an effort in to keeping people out of a winning state but still that seems to turn into the same thought that everyone will go for the win but hope that other people spend their actions trying to prevent others from getting into a state where they can win. So the strategy has been, I spend my actions on making myself win and let other people spend their actions trying to stop my opponents. But then everyone adopts this strategy and no one is stopping opponents so it ends on the first topple. Any advice? Just the wrong group for this game?
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Garth Tams
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Can't help you hear, the game didn't click with my group either. What makes it more frustrating is that I cannot pin point why. It just didn't.
 
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Cole Wehrle
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Play with the most recent living rules (with the improved Tax action) and, more critically, play with updated Nation Building variant.

Nation Building will "slow" the game considerably in that the victory will unfold over at least a couple topples. The addition of victory points usually goes a long way in helping players grok who they should be associating with and who they should plot again.

Edit:
Probably my only serious regret about the design of Pamir is that it's the kind of game that can end quickly. This isn't a bad thing by itself, but if group puts a lot of effort in learning a game they should get a chance to really see it in action. If ever another edition comes out, I think I'll make the improved Nation Building rules the default and move the current victory conditions to an advanced variant. In any case, thanks for giving the game a chance.
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Jack
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I like Pamir and have, but have not yet tried Renaissance, but Porfiriana is my favorite of the lot. Plays GREAT with 3p, whereas Pamir definitely needs 4 or 5p.
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Andrew Denison
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Play with the most recent living rules (with the improved Tax action) and, more critically, play with updated Nation Building variant.

Nation Building will "slow" the game considerably in that the victory will unfold over at least a couple topples. The addition of victory points usually goes a long way in helping players grok who they should be associating with and who they should plot again.

Edit:
Probably my only serious regret about the design of Pamir is that it's the kind of game that can end quickly. This isn't a bad thing by itself, but if group puts a lot of effort in learning a game they should get a chance to really see it in action. If ever another edition comes out, I think I'll make the improved Nation Building rules the default and move the current victory conditions to an advanced variant. In any case, thanks for giving the game a chance.


I am hoping to try this with the nation building rule and variant start rules next time we play it. I was hoping Pax Renaissance would have a similar variant but I didn't see it in the rules.

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Lance Peterson
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You also need to make good use of the campaign action to remove tribes, armies and roads. Also, make sure you are calculating supremacy correctly. To achieve supremacy, a nation needs more than the other 2 nations combined.
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Mark Taraba
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MungSu wrote:
You also need to make good use of the campaign action to remove tribes, armies and roads. Also, make sure you are calculating supremacy correctly. To achieve supremacy, a nation needs more than the other 2 nations combined.

But the campaign action is mostly useful when they're free actions. If espionage actions are free then you must spend one of your two actions attacking other players. And then the market costs are doubled so people try to flip off of that regime quickly.

Yes we have it correct. But it'll be something like more spies than everyone else currently wins but they have a road, an army and a tribe. Then someone will change the regime so that supremacy in tribes wins but that player has a road, an army and a spy. You can get the game in a state when all three nations are in a winning posion and only need the regime changed to let them win.
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Mark Taraba
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Play with the most recent living rules (with the improved Tax action) and, more critically, play with updated Nation Building variant.

Nation Building will "slow" the game considerably in that the victory will unfold over at least a couple topples. The addition of victory points usually goes a long way in helping players grok who they should be associating with and who they should plot again.

Edit:
Probably my only serious regret about the design of Pamir is that it's the kind of game that can end quickly. This isn't a bad thing by itself, but if group puts a lot of effort in learning a game they should get a chance to really see it in action. If ever another edition comes out, I think I'll make the improved Nation Building rules the default and move the current victory conditions to an advanced variant. In any case, thanks for giving the game a chance.

Thanks. I'll give those a try.
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Cagey McCageface
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I know it took me many games to break out of the thought process of only buying/playing cards and taking the 'free' special actions tied to the current regime. Perhaps try encouraging your players to think outside the box and spend an action or two executing 'non-regime' actions.
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Mark Taraba
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jmayDET wrote:
I know it took me many games to break out of the thought process of only buying/playing cards and taking the 'free' special actions tied to the current regime. Perhaps try encouraging your players to think outside the box and spend an action or two executing 'non-regime' actions.

I've tried. Nevermind that people don't like being told how to play a game. But they see buying and playing cards as moving toward victory, giving themselves more abilities and taking free actions as efficient. It's not that they don't ever take non-regime actions, but those are not done more than the other three. Or they moatly make non-regime attacks to give them a supremacy in some category to move toward victory instead of making non-regime attacks to knock people out of supremacy. Then the game ends and they don't see their strategy as flawed because they were close to winning if they could have just changed the regime to their winning condition.
 
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Cole Wehrle
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Yeah this is a game where optimizing actions and engine building usually just hands the victory to someone else.
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Jorik
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Yeah this is a game where optimizing actions and engine building usually just hands the victory to someone else.

indeed, it's not the run off the mill Euro.
my friends with whom I mostly play euros don't particularly like the Pax series due to the sudden death victory.
our first game of Pamir ended on the first topple as well, due to @ engine building@ thinking of most of the players.
if you like engine building it can be hard to unlearn, and from my experience not everyone is willing to take those steps. I usually fly by the seat of my pants where engine building games are concerned and mostly do well enough usually to come third whistle
 
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Geoff Conn
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This is why I wish I had set aside time for the PP playing sessions at bggcon...Im fascinated by this game but having the same problems as the op.

Wish I could play it more often locally.
 
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Karl Hanf
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Play with the most recent living rules (with the improved Tax action) ...

What's the improved Tax action? Nothing about Tax in v.1.2 of the living rules is in a red font to indicate it's changed from the published rules. ?
 
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Cole Wehrle
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The rule is pretty different. Though you are right that it isn't in red. That'll be fixed in the next version .

Quote:
E11. Tax (Political Special Action).
(E11.1) Use this action to take rupees up to the acting card’s Rank.

(E11.2) Restrictions. There are two restrictions on the Tax action. First, cards may only use the Tax action in their location. Second, a player may only Tax in a location if he has at least one tribe and more units (tribes + loyal armies) than any other player in that location. Ties should be broken following the tie-breaker (A3).

(E11.3) Procedure. Take rupees equal to the rank of the acting card. Rupees may be taken from any player whose tableau contains a card of the same location as the taxing card or any market card of that location. Ex. Taxing with a rank 3 Herat card, the Ruler of Herat takes two rupees from a player whose tableau contains Bandits (an intelligence card in Herat) and another rupee from a Market Card located in Herat.
 
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Luigi C.
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Sedro Woolley
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Give it a try with the Living Rules 1.2 and the Nations Building variant and your experience of the game will be very different. The first topple will be your wake up call, and the length of the game will allow for more negotiation and shifting alliances. Better play with 4 players and keep a lean hand after the cullings and honeymoons or the game will be very long.
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Paolo D'Ulisse
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ROMA
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I played this game some time ago and it was a tiring "Kill the possible winner" till the loooong end of the game... no one liked it too much... Now, after I received the expansion, I was thinking to play the game elimitating the first Topple card and maybe the second(for too fast victories) and apply the others as soon as they come out from the deck... Can it work or I am missing something after so much time?...
 
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