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Legendary: Civil War» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fighting Tarantula with an empty hand rss

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--Evil
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A rules question that came up recently is this.

Tarantula
Fight: Each player discards two cards or gains a Wound.


If a player fights Tarantula and has no cards in hand, can that player choose to "discard two cards" as the Fight effect on the card, even though they have no cards in hand?

Thanks,

--Evil
 
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Dave Roy
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evilempire22 wrote:
A rules question that came up recently is this.

Tarantula
Fight: Each player discards two cards or gains a Wound.


If a player fights Tarantula and has no cards in hand, can that player choose to "discard two cards" as the Fight effect on the card, even though they have no cards in hand?

Thanks,

--Evil


I would think so.

Since it's not a requirement to fight Tarantula, it's an effect of fighting him, you would only do what you can.

Hypothetically, if a fight effect was "KO one of your SHIELD Heroes" and you didn't have any, that wouldn't prevent you from fighting that villain.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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I agree with this. I think players are free to choose either option and then carry it out to the best of their ability. In fact, if there were no Wounds left in the Wound stack, I think players could still choose to gain a Wound to no effect.
 
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Dave Roy
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Good lord. Sorry, wasn't reading the question carefully enough.

I would agree with Davy: I think you can choose an effect that you can't do when you have a choice.

Though I'm not as 100% certain as I was of the question I actually answered.
 
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Darrell B
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Maybe I am misinterpreting this, but I would say no. Because you couldn't discard two cards, I would think you have to do the other option. Other thoughts?
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Davy Ashleydale
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I agree that the wording is a little ambiguous.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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But there are often times in this game when penalties can be avoided by not having any cards in your hand, so this seems like it could be one of those times.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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It's possible that it could mean:

Fight: Each player discards 2 cards. If they are unable, they gain a Wound.

But that's not really giving the player a choice between the two. It's saying that if they have 2 or more cards, they have to discard 2 of them. If they have 0 or 1 cards, they have to gain a Wound.

But it would certainly have been more clear if it had said:

Fight: Each player chooses one -- Discard 2 cards or Gain a Wound.

Then it would be more clear that even a player with no cards could still choose "Discard 2 cards".

 
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YaVerOt YaVerOt
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Try:

Fight: Each player gains a Wound unless they discard 2 cards.
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David A
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I honestly think everyone is over thinking this. It means the discard must happen and those who can't discard end up gaining a wound.

Here's why:
Page 17 of the Core Rules wrote:
“Reveal an X-Men Hero or Gain a Wound.”
“Reveal a card” just means show the other players that you have it. You don’t play or discard the card you revealed. When you have the opportunity to “reveal a card”, you can reveal a card from your hand or you can reveal a card in front of you that you have already played this turn.
• For example, say you play a Wolverine card and a Deadpool card to make 5 Attack, and you still have four S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents in your hand. Then you fight the Villain Sabretooth. For Sabretooth’s “Fight” effect, you can reveal the Wolverine (X-Men) card you already played this turn so that you don’t have to take a Wound. You could also just choose to gain the Wound if you really wanted, for example if you had lots of cards in your deck that benefited from Wounds.

Now hear me out. It's not the exact same situation, but notice the wording. Reveal or gain a wound. One or the other has to happen. The thing is, in the OP's scenario, all the cards are played so a discard can't happen (discarding comes from your hand) therefore the player gains a wound. If they didn't play all of their cards in advance, then they could certainly choose which effect they take.

**edit for clarity**
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Cim Fisher
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Either way you look at it, you'd have to gain a Wound if you have no cards.

If you look at it as a choice, then with no cards in hand, you can't choose to discard them because there are no cards to discard. It's like handing someone a chocolate ice cream cone, and asking them to choose to either eat the chocolate cone or the strawberry cone. They can't eat the strawberry because there isn't one to eat, so they either don't a cone at all, or they each the chocolate. In this case, not doing either isn't an option, so you must eat the chocolate (gain the Wound).
 
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Michael Green
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Thud105 wrote:
I honestly think everyone is over thinking this. It means the discard must happen and those who can't discard end up gaining a wound.

Here's why:
Page 17 of the Core Rules wrote:
“Reveal an X-Men Hero or Gain a Wound.”
“Reveal a card” just means show the other players that you have it. You don’t play or discard the card you revealed. When you have the opportunity to “reveal a card”, you can reveal a card from your hand or you can reveal a card in front of you that you have already played this turn.
• For example, say you play a Wolverine card and a Deadpool card to make 5 Attack, and you still have four S.H.I.E.L.D. Agents in your hand. Then you fight the Villain Sabretooth. For Sabretooth’s “Fight” effect, you can reveal the Wolverine (X-Men) card you already played this turn so that you don’t have to take a Wound. You could also just choose to gain the Wound if you really wanted, for example if you had lots of cards in your deck that benefited from Wounds.

Now hear me out. It's not the exact same situation, but notice the wording. Reveal or gain a wound. One or the other has to happen. The thing is, in the OP's scenario, all the cards are played so a discard can't happen (discarding comes from your hand) therefore the player gains a wound. If they didn't play all of their cards in advance, then they could certainly choose which effect they take.

**edit for clarity**


I agree with this.
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Davy Ashleydale
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Cimmerz wrote:
Either way you look at it, you'd have to gain a Wound if you have no cards.

If you look at it as a choice, then with no cards in hand, you can't choose to discard them because there are no cards to discard. It's like handing someone a chocolate ice cream cone, and asking them to choose to either eat the chocolate cone or the strawberry cone. They can't eat the strawberry because there isn't one to eat, so they either don't a cone at all, or they each the chocolate. In this case, not doing either isn't an option, so you must eat the chocolate (gain the Wound).


I don't agree with this. If someone asks me if I want to eat a chocolate cone or a strawberry cone and I say, "Strawberry," then they hand me a chocolate cone, I won't eat it. I chose strawberry and they didn't give me strawberry, I'm not forced to eat the chocolate one.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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In this game, "Discard X cards," means "Discard X cards. If you have fewer than X cards, discard all of them. If you have 0 cards, discard none." So if you are ever in a situation where you have 1 card in your hand and a card effect tells you to "Discard 3 cards," you satisfy it by discarding your one and only card. In fact, it's also satisfied if you have 0 cards in hand and you discard none.

So if you are saying that you have to gain a Wound because you can't satisfy "Discard 2 cards," you are incorrect. If you have 0 cards in hand and you discard none, that satisfies, "Discard 2 cards."
 
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David A
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randomlife wrote:
In this game, "Discard X cards," means "Discard X cards. If you have fewer than X cards, discard all of them. If you have 0 cards, discard none."

Source? I looked through the Core and the Dark City Rules as well as the FAQ.

randomlife wrote:
So if you are saying that you have to gain a Wound because you can't satisfy "Discard 2 cards," you are incorrect. If you have 0 cards in hand and you discard none, that satisfies, "Discard 2 cards."
I strongly disagree and refer back to my earlier post (4 prior to yours). If there is nothing to discard, then the only actionable option left for the player is to take the Wound.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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Thud105 wrote:
randomlife wrote:
In this game, "Discard X cards," means "Discard X cards. If you have fewer than X cards, discard all of them. If you have 0 cards, discard none."


Source? I looked through the Core and the Dark City Rules as well as the FAQ.


Is that not how you play? If not, how do you handle "Discard X cards" in the cases of having X cards, X-1 cards, and 0 cards?
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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"Fight: Each player discards two cards or gains a Wound."

is ambiguous to me.

"Fight: Each player gains a Wound unless they discard exactly 2 cards."

is not.

I'm willing to believe that the former means the latter, I'm just saying it's not a 100% guarantee in my mind.
 
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Darth Ed
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Short version: I agree it's somewhat ambiguous as to what you should do when you have less than 2 cards, but I'm inclined to agree with David A (Thud105).

Long version: Devin Low's adage has always been that you do as much of whatever a card tells you that you are able to do. So, yes, if the card text says "Discard 2 cards" and you have only one card, then you discard that one card and you're done. Similarly, for zero cards. I think this is well documented by various rules clarifications from Mr. Low.

However, based on the quoted example from the core set rules, it does make it sound like it's intended that we interpret card text that says "Do X or do Y" as though there is an understood "else" (or "otherwise") after the "or".

Why is the card phrased like this? I think it's to legitimately to give the player a choice when they have 2 or more cards in hand. There are scenarios when a player might want the Wound. It could trigger Captain America's "Diving Block" or Colossus' card or be useful to someone with Hulk or Wolverine cards.

What's not clear is whether a player with less than 2 cards in hand still has the option to choose. Again, I'm inclined to say no.
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It's entirely possible for the Wound Stack to be depleted, however. If there are no wounds left and if there are fewer than 2 cards in your hand, does the game end in UNDEFINED and/or a table flip?
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Darrell B
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TheUbiquitous wrote:
It's entirely possible for the Wound Stack to be depleted, however. If there are no wounds left and if there are fewer than 2 cards in your hand, does the game end in UNDEFINED and/or a table flip?


Now you are trying to divide by zero and make the universe explode... whistle At least there will be pretty lights
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David A
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Darreb510 wrote:
Now you are trying to divide by zero and make the universe explode... whistle At least there will be pretty lights

I heard there's a restaurant built for you to dine and watch this happen!
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