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Subject: Kickstarter - My realization rss

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nat tact
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Most of the games that I have backed have ended up bad or have only a few plays of life in them and if they are good they usually see a second printing that have rule book and text corrections.

The worst thing is that If I were to not Kickstart any games and instead bought after market Ebay prices for Kickstarter versions I still would have spent less money...

Bah Humbug
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Bryan Thunkd
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Yup. Anything good will probably be available cheaper later (and occasionally before the backers get their copy).
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Ben King
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Gianluca Casu
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I'm sorry you had this bad experience.

My Kickstarter life has 4 failures over 110+ projects wich brought to me games that are fun, well done and of which I have the complete files ( solving every possible future issue)

Many people complain about kickstarter, it is not my case. You are free to check my collection and see the votes.
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Wolfgang Kunz
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I see a different trend going on:

KS in the beginning was to help support getting a game printed. Then people found out that they get the money in advance - sometimes a lot of money - and deliver something later. This "something" is sometimes inferior, as you realized, but became a nice business model.

If a game is good you see it in stores, you can buy expansions and Add-ons a KS backer might get as a freebie. That's ok for me. A good example is Zombicide. If you backed you got 6 + zillions of survivors but the game was very playable w/o those.

A bad example is Myth - where the KS really added IMHO needed monsters to the game for a better price

or

(even worse example) Shadows of Brimstone. Lots of money, still not fulfilled, even if you buy the expansions available you do not get the needed figures the encounter - cards listed. You might buy a KS thru ebay but can only hope that the seller will be so generous to send you the stillunfullfilled stuff also.

KS is a clever, very clever pay-in-advance order-system. And even when some will gather their pitchforks and torches and outstanding example is the latest Kindom Death: Monster - KS with an fullfilling date that is so far in the future that a CC-refund or PP-refund are way off. thumbsup

I too got to realize that KS is a lot hot air, less quality (based on those I participated) but I assume will be THE game-selling-model for the future.

While producing a bad game, getting bad rep led to you sitting on 3000 copies
with KS you got them sold (and don't need no reseller either) before any bad rep hits your cash-flow.

Then you dump the old company and start a new one, same model, same road.

I really regret not having the idea for a KS-like model first.

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Jeff Saxton
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It just means doing your homework, and taking any Creator claims with a grain (or a huge truckload) of salt.

I haven't backed many, and only had one I'd consider a wash, but then I am very picky.

Just yesterday I dropped a boatload of money on the campaign Steve Jackson Games ran for their plastic Ogre miniatures ....
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George Nebesnik
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I love kickstarter and even though I could wait a year and probably get most games cheaper, if everyone used that philosophy those games wouldn't be as good, if they existed at all.

I'm not a fan of KS exclusives, never have been. What I am a fan of are stretch goals that make the game better for everyone.

The Manhattan Project: Energy Empire is the perfect example. To me every stretch goal was awesome. The first few were just extra cards. Buildings, global impacts, etc. Cards that will make the game slightly different every time you play it. Then came the really awesome stretch goals. Upgrading the three main resources from cubes to I-Beam steel, pink plastic cubes, and cool looking oil barrels. You could argue that none of these improvements make the game better and game play would be the same even with the cubes. Fair enough.

But the final stretch goal improved game play. It took the regular dice and customized them. Gone was rolling and referring to some chart. All the info is right on the dice. That's a game play improvement in my opinion.

All of these stretch goals are also included in the retail version, which I think is great. Just because someone didn't back it on KS doesn't mean they should get less of a game. I backed at the $59 level to get a copy of the game. You can pre-order it right now from CSI for $42.99. I'm sure that bothers some people, but not me. I have no problem paying an extra $16 to make the game a better game in the long run.
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Gianluca Casu
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Thunkd wrote:
Yup. Anything good will probably be available cheaper later (and occasionally before the backers get their copy).


Exactly my friend and you can thank said backers for giving you the possibility, maybe, to play one great game that you would have not if we did not chip in.

You are very welcome.
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Chris Laudermilk
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Mack_me_Bucko wrote:
It just means doing your homework, and taking any Creator claims with a grain (or a huge truckload) of salt.

I haven't backed many, and only had one I'd consider a wash, but then I am very picky.

Came to say this. In theory KS was supposed to be crowd-sourcing venture capital. In practice it's largely become a pre-order system for board gaming.

As Jeff said, you have to do your homework before backing. Thus far I have not gotten burned. I've received all the games I've backed; though a few took longer than promised, and a few were less than inspiring. After those I got more picky and have had good luck. Like the said: most of the good ones will get printed again.
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Matt Brown
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The only truly great game I got from KS was Keyflower and that was a glorified preorder.
 
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Curt Carpenter
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claudermilk wrote:
As Jeff said, you have to do your homework before backing.

I do my homework, and to the OP's point, there seems precious little that's worth backing. Pretty much nothing, really. AT least for Euro gamers. AT gamers may be in a different boat, with miniatures being the big thing in big KS games.
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You could also view kickstarter as a place where you can help make new board games a reality. Maybe you don't make fantastic savings but you will of helped those games come into existence and these should be games that you like.
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nat tact
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curtc wrote:
claudermilk wrote:
As Jeff said, you have to do your homework before backing.

I do my homework, and to the OP's point, there seems precious little that's worth backing. Pretty much nothing, really. AT least for Euro gamers. AT gamers may be in a different boat, with miniatures being the big thing in big KS games.


I think that,
1. I need to do more homework
2. Learn from my mistakes, "deluxe editions" are usually not worth the distance.
3. If it has mini's get it a few years later when the game is cheaper and the Kickstarter exclusives are super cheap.
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Chengkai Yang
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nathairday wrote:
Most of the games that I have backed have ended up bad or have only a few plays of life in them and if they are good they usually see a second printing that have rule book and text corrections.

The worst thing is that If I were to not Kickstart any games and instead bought after market Ebay prices for Kickstarter versions I still would have spent less money...

Bah Humbug


YMMV depending on whose project it is and what kind of game it is. Some like CMON are better on the KS end then on retail, the current KDM KS is one such. Others might not be of that much value at all. IT also depends on what your goals are, to see something created or get kickbacks for a donation of capital. I think though that now that you're aware of the issue you'll be more watchful. I wouldn't discount KS as a medium but know the risks and potentials.
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Curt Carpenter
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nathairday wrote:
3. If it has mini's get it a few years later when the game is cheaper and the Kickstarter exclusives are super cheap.

Well, if you care about minis, you often can't beat KS. But that's the rub of KS. Lots of minis doesn't necessarily make a great game.

And given that the game isn't actually released at the time of KS project, you can't really "do your homework" to see if it's a good game. There are always a handful of "helpful" reviewers who tell you how awesome it is, even though you can't play it yourself first, or hear from trusted impartial others who have.
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capricorn_tm wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
Yup. Anything good will probably be available cheaper later (and occasionally before the backers get their copy).


Exactly my friend and you can thank said backers for giving you the possibility, maybe, to play one great game that you would have not if we did not chip in.

You are very welcome.


You say that as if only the backers pay for the game and the folks picking them up at retail get them for free...
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Bryan Thunkd
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capricorn_tm wrote:
Thunkd wrote:
Yup. Anything good will probably be available cheaper later (and occasionally before the backers get their copy).


Exactly my friend and you can thank said backers for giving you the possibility, maybe, to play one great game that you would have not if we did not chip in.

You are very welcome.
Maybe some games, but not most of the ones I know about. I don't believe for a second that the majority of games kickstarted by Queen or Eagle Gryphon wouldn't have made it to market without kickstarter.

In fact, I don't think I own a game that was Kickstarted and that I legitimately believe wouldn't exist without Kickstarter.

So thanks for bringing to market all the not-so-great games I don't consider worth buying.
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Gianluca Casu
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Dice is Right wrote:


You say that as if only the backers pay for the game and the folks picking them up at retail get them for free...


No no no, no strawmen my friend, we can do better than this here. You would not be able to pay if It did not exist. And it would not exist if you did not back it before.

Let's get the time sequence right.
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Gianluca Casu
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Thunkd wrote:

So thanks for bringing to market all the not-so-great games I don't consider worth buying.


You happy, we all happy. That said, you are missing a lot of very good games like that.

Just my opinion, of course.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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Jorath wrote:
You could also view kickstarter as a place where you can help make new board games a reality. Maybe you don't make fantastic savings but you will of helped those games come into existence and these should be games that you like.

That's the myth they peddle, but I'd been watching great new games come into existence for half a century before there was any such thing as Kickstarter. Weird, huh?
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Curt Carpenter
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capricorn_tm wrote:
And it would not exist if you did not back it before.

That's where you're missing something. It's only a claim that the games wouldn't have been published otherwise. Somehow games were still published before Kickstarter. There are other options to publish. If anything, it seems most likely that only the bad games really owe their existence to KS, and people like the guy you quoted probably don't buy those games.
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Guido Gloor
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I think it's a bit of both. Kickstarter makes it easier for both good and bad games to see the light of day. Deciding whether a game is good or not is often not easy when looking at a Kickstarter, and that's why the number of games I buy through Kickstarter has gone down a lot in the last few years.

How much I spend for board games on Kickstarter hasn't really gone down though - I spend more per game for fewer games.

I find myself drawn to somewhat-niche games with high production values where I'm rather certain that they'll turn out well - either because of the track record of the designer (as was the case with Codex, where I got the deluxe set and I'm happy with it, or the recent Tiny Epic stuff) or because the game is known to be good (I'm currently backing KD:M at insane levels, and waiting for Santorini with its lovely production values). Many of these would be really hard to pitch to traditional publishers I'm sure.

But yes, Kickstarter is absolutely not necessary for games to be made and published. It's just one among now more than before ways to get there.
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Gianluca Casu
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curtc wrote:

That's where you're missing something. It's only a claim that the games wouldn't have been published otherwise. Somehow games were still published before Kickstarter. There are other options to publish. If anything, it seems most likely that only the bad games really owe their existence to KS, and people like the guy you quoted probably don't buy those games.


Really? Then you should be so kind to tell me why there is no expansion to Shadow Throne, or why Guild Masters will not be produced since it failed it's funding goal and has to relaunched.

I have many examples like those and no, if you have no money you cannot print and if an editor does not produce you your game will not exist.

I understand that you follow only the mainstream games on Kickstarter and there you are spot on on the preorder system, but many small editors are NOT Queen games.
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M V
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If you have so much free time and opportunity that you would literally run out of good games to play if kickstarter didn't exist, then let me shake your hand in awe and envy. I will salute you as you walk away.

I love a number of games that originated on Kickstarter. If 50% of those - or 75%! - ceased to exist due the lack of crowdfunding, I wouldn't care. I'd still have enough great games, coming through regular publication channels or published in the pre-kickstarter era, to last a lifetime.

If 75% of *good* kickstarter games ceased to exist but the remaining 25% tended to be slightly better, with more extensive play testing, refinement, and rulebook editing that the regular publication process is more likely to force on designers, I would find that to be a happy trade off.

But I can't work up any strong feelings toward kickstarter one way or another. For any regretful souls out there, if it helps, think of it as money spent on lessons on how to be a savvier consumer.
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I like kickstarter, I probably haven't backed as many project (17) as others but I haven't had a bad experience yet. I think all the ones I backed have been late (or very late, I'm looking at you 7th Continent) except the ones with Essen pickups but I don't mind that, I'm just happy to help getting the game made.

I do agree with

capricorn_tm wrote:
You would not be able to pay if It did not exist. And it would not exist if you did not back it before.


whether it is true or not.

The only "bad KS experience" I have is buying Myth when it was released. So technically it doesn't count.
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