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Mythic Battles: Pantheon» Forums » General

Subject: Please fix the typography! rss

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Universal Head
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I had a whinge about the typography of Conan in another thread, but after getting another update today, I'm horrified to see the same mistake is being made in Mythic Battles - poorly full justified text.



'Hermes .... can .... ignore .... movement ....'

Guys, please don't make this mistake again! This is not professional, easy to read typography, and the problem is so easy to fix!

I know I’m being picky here - please excuse me, graphic design is my profession - but it's frustrating to see basic typography errors in an otherwise very professional production.

Fully justified text is a particularly poor choice when you have translations to do, because you have to go through it carefully and adjust it for it to work properly, so you're increasing your work and your risk of errors.
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James Hébert
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Please do consider this request!

Even if you don't SEE the difference he is referring to here, know that there IS a difference many people see. It makes the product look sloppy and unprofessional.

This does NOT fit with the quality of the art, miniature sculpts, and kickstarter management that you clearly do excellently.

Note: Do you see the difference? If not, I urge you to have a dialog with Universal Head and find out what before/after looks like. It is worth your time. --from an excited and anxious backer
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Daniel Guinoza
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Also:

- Letter U looks like L I (the typeset used for unit's titles). That should be an easy fix, too.

- The layout of the small boxes is fine, but the big boxes look ugly (not the art).

Also, a bit related:

The choice of words should be consistent across similar effects, should be greatly simplified. An example:

"The Necronomicon Troop can retaliate. The Necronomicon Troop can take a shower. The Necronomicon Troop cannot go shopping."

should read:

"This unit can retaliate and take a shower, but can't go shopping."

There are many cases like this where there is a wall of text spread through many paragraphs that really only require one sentence. Go read Hearthstone's card as an example of text simplification.

I recommend creating a category called "minions" for troops that can't be recruited normally and come free with another unit. That being in the rules simplifies copying many paragraphs across many units. That is called a keyword, and very useful in MTG and Hearthstone.


Edit:

Also, the gods and titans should have positive recruitment costs.

Typhon should have 4 instead of -4. That way, you will always have to worry about summing up to 12. The only exception should be Hera with -2. That way, gods and titans will be aligned with the methodology of monsters, heroes and troops.
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TonyKR
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The easy fix to is to enable hyphenation and define a good set of hyphenation rules that are build around the layout space and typical word length. (Don't just turn on hyphenation and take whatever the default settings are.)

That coupled with making sure different translations are handled as black plate changes only can go a really long way.
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Chris F
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I dunno, I would recommend fully justified without hyphenation. Hyphens are not professional either, at least not in the legal field of technical writing. I definitely would not even entertain not using full justification as it would then look like a 7th grader wrote it. I would say maybe play with the margins of each card until it looks the best you can get.
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Jack
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Horrible. Looks amateurish.
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Universal Head
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frch0603 wrote:
I dunno, I would recommend fully justified without hyphenation. Hyphens are not professional either, at least not in the legal field of technical writing. I definitely would not even entertain not using full justification as it would then look like a 7th grader wrote it. I would say maybe play with the margins of each card until it looks the best you can get.


With the greatest respect Chris, that's not how graphic designers approach type. But the bottom line is, full justified text needs a steady, experienced hand on the tiller, and shouldn't be left to the computer.

Ragged right justification is easier to read and there are far less opportunities for the kind of typographical ugliness I point out above.

In any case, whatever justification is used, hyphenation has to be carefully checked throughout and kept to an absolute minimum.

There are lots of factors involved. That's why there are professional graphic designers.
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Paul DeStefano
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This complaint is justified.
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Universal Head
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Here's a *very* quick example of better type:



I realise in this case the first line of Celerity is a bit short in relation to the next, but it's still better than gappy text or an unnecessary hyphenation - and, I reckon, easier to read. And text just shouldn't be vertically centered in boxes.

Another thing I must point out is this fashion of putting type in capitals and making the first cap larger. Unless you have a special font set, this makes the first capital thicker than the rest of the word, which is another typographical no-no and ruins the integrity of the typeface. Even FFG do it and it drives me bonkers!

So I changed those titles (I don't have the exact font so this is a rough).

And another thing I see all the time is bad relationships between the leading (space between lines) and the space between paragraphs.

I could go on ...
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James Hébert
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Indeed, much could be fine-tuned for a classic, ultra-professional appearance on the cards, and in the manuals.

Even the titles CELERITY and KERYKEION seem shifted too much to the left once added symbols begin to appear on the line (here, centering the text in the available space would help with balance and readability, providing some "air" on either side of the title).

Note: A designer I used to work with always turned hyphenation off. He hated it (his spelling was atrocious, but to his credit he knew that and we always checked his work). If that resulted in wildly erratic ragged lines, he would go back to the wordsmiths to have them revise the text to address the unwanted issue, while retaining the intent of the text.
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Matt Hausig
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The line break is what bothers me the most. It "movement restrictions" should be together. Unless it's mechanically relevant, the card could read "Hermes ignores" instead of "Hermes can ignore". The latter implies that the Hermes player must actively choose to ignore restrictions rather than simply always having the ability to use Hermes full movement.
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Universal Head
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Yep, in an ideal world, rewrites should be done for the absolute best result. I'd far rather the 1 reading flow pause from this line break that the 3 in the original text, however.

It just emphasises again how you can't just 'set and forget' type in a page layout programme.
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Benoit VOGT
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I admit that this Dashboard needs to be improved. But please keep in mind this is not final stuff.
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Gustavo Sanchez
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UniversalHead wrote:
And text just shouldn't be vertically centered in boxes.


Why not? Is it easier to read when it's "top-left-centered?"
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Martin Gallo
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Please also consider the use of larger text when possible. If you can read this, good for you. I cannot.
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Universal Head
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nexbot wrote:
Why not? Is it easier to read when it's "top-left-centered?"


Because depending on the length of the text, it will shift around in the box. Not only is the variation in spacing inconsistent and unattractive, but it slows readability - the brain must very briefly 'hunt' for the start of the sentence each time, cutting down on readability. If the text is consistently in the same place in the top left hand corner, it's better looking and easier to read.
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Universal Head
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Benoit0905 wrote:
I admit that this Dashboard needs to be improved. But please keep in mind this is not final stuff.


Glad you agree - just trying to help and improve things by sharing my professional experience in graphic design and typography.

Congratulations on such a successful campaign!
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Ciaran M
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Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?

Along the lines of:


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Chris F
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ezeqiel wrote:
Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?

Along the lines of:




That is definitely a good idea
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Gustavo Sanchez
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ezeqiel wrote:
Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?

Along the lines of:




I like the way this looks.
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Universal Head
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ezeqiel wrote:
Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?


Nicely done. And put the hand icons to the far right in the same position, with the other icons to the left of it.
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Ciaran M
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UniversalHead wrote:
ezeqiel wrote:
Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?


Nicely done. And put the hand icons to the far right in the same position, with the other icons to the left of it.


Yeah, realised this after I added that image in - icons should scale in height as you move from left to right ideally, to improve the visual flow:

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Gustavo Sanchez
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ezeqiel wrote:
UniversalHead wrote:
ezeqiel wrote:
Would it also look and read better to align the titles of the abilities with the ability text and move the icons to the right-hand side of the title bar?


Nicely done. And put the hand icons to the far right in the same position, with the other icons to the left of it.


Yeah, realised this after I added that image in - icons should scale in height as you move from left to right ideally, to improve the visual flow:



You guys are beasts. How did you learn this stuff? Are there good how-to videos/articles? Do you only learn this in school, or is it innate skill?

Some combination?
 
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Tyrone
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+3.1416 to this for better typography/ layout.
 
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J P
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Turonee wrote:
+3.1416 to this for better typography/ layout.



+1.618 !
 
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