geek
The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion - Stash Promo Card
Runewars
Dominion: Alchemy
Thunderstone
Dominion
Dungeon Lords
Alexander the Great
Agricola
Twilight Struggle
Murder at the Four Deuces
Stronghold
The Republic of Rome
Race for the Galaxy
Small World
Arkham Horror
Founding Fathers
Race for the Galaxy: The Brink of War
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Vapor's Gambit
Battlestar Galactica
Chaos in the Old World
Le Havre
Last Night on Earth: The Zombie Game
Mystery Express
Puerto Rico
Endeavor
Power Grid
Vasco da Gama
Warhammer: Invasion
Descent: Journeys in the Dark
Space Hulk (3rd Edition)
Pandemic
Hansa Teutonica
Carson City
Campaign Manager 2008
War of the Ring
Livingstone
Cosmic Encounter
Stone Age
Le Havre: Le Grand Hameau
Tobago
Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion Expansion
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition
Summoner Wars
War of the Ring Collector's Edition
Macao
Carcassonne
Dominion: Prosperity
Neuland
Steam
Rules | Subscriptions | Bookmarks | Search | Account | Moderators
Recommend
51
23 Posts
New Thread | Printer Friendly | Subscribe  sub options | Bookmark
Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrew Carlstrom
United States
San Marcos
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
I’ve owned this beauty for a few months, but as most of my gaming is two player, it took a while to get this to the table. Last week, though, we got a group of four together and I suggested Shogun, as the group was made up of wargamers, euro gamers, and RPGers.

By way of brief background, I am primarily a wargamer with a deep interest in history and secondarily an Ameritrash gamer with an affinity for fantasy and sci-fi themes.

Components

This game is really attractive, which is one reason I bought it in the first place. The map is really beautiful, and well mounted. The cards are nice (though a bit small) and have a nice finish. The wooden blocks are cool, and look great piled up on the enemy’s border, ready to heave across at H-Hour. The artwork is solid throughout and very evocative of the theme.



The cube tower is brilliant. I’ve read complaints about trying to justify its somewhat random outcomes, but I had no problem here. So I attack with 4 armies and 5 pop out. So what? Maybe my success drew more to my cause.



In any case, I didn’t worry about justifying this game’s particular randomizing mechanic, I just appreciated its originality and ingenuity.

Object

Shogun is a multiplayer game of building and conflict in feudal Japan. The object is, over the course of two years, to gather more victory points than your opponents. Victory points are accrued twice during the game, at the end of each year. During the scoring phase, you get a VP for:

Each controlled province
Each building
3 VP: Most Castles in a region (a region is a group of 9 color-matched provinces)
2 VP: Most Temples in a region
1 VP: Most Theaters in a region

Turn Phase

Essentially, there are 3 turns (spring, summer, fall) followed by a scoring phase (winter). Then three more turns, followed by a second scoring phase. After that, high score (most VP’s) wins.

The turn sequence is:

Lay out action cards. This means determine in which order that turns ten ‘actions’ will occur. The ten actions are the same each turn, and are generally one of four types: 1) spending treasure chests (hereafter “gold”) to raise armies 2) spending gold to build buildings, 3) move and attack, 4) raise taxes by gathering gold or rice from a province. The ten actions are very specific (for example, one allows a player to raise 5 armies for 3 gold, while another allows a levy of 3 armies for 2 gold). The first five actions are face up, so you know what’s coming, the last five are face down, and revealed one at a time as the face up actions are executed.

Lay out special cards. There are five of these, that give the player some small advantage for the turn, like raising an extra army or gold, or adding one army to attack or defense. They are randomly place on a turn order chart. So if the ‘add one gold to your taxes’ advantage is placed on turn order #3, and you select that advantage, you are also choosing to go third in each phase of the turn.

Plan Individual actions. Here is where most of the game time occurs, and this is the source of one of my main complaints with this game. Here the players assign one of the game’s ten standard actions to one of their provinces. For example, by placing a province card, face down, on one’s player mat with the ‘pay three gold and raise 5 armies’ action, when that phase comes up, the specified action takes place in that province…and only that province. No province gets two actions in a phase, and no action can take place in more than one province. Forget out raising an army and attacking with it in one turn.


You'll spend a lot of time staring at this

Players also bid for turn order in this phase, by committing 0 to 4 gold. Once revealed, the highest bidder selects the advantage and turn position they want (i.e. ‘special card’ mechanic described above).

Determine events.

A random event card is turned over that has a global effect on the turn, like not allowing combat in a temple space, or capping the amount of rice gathered by taxes.

Determine Turn Order.

Here players choose there special card (i.e. advantage for the turn) along with their turn order, in order of highest bid placed in the ‘Plan Individual Actions’ phase above.


A close up of three of the five 'special cards' on the turn order track

Carry out actions.

Now players execute, in turn order, each of the turn’s ten actions. This should be the heart of the game, but in practice, it seems this game is far more about planning than executing.

Winter

In winter, more than scoring happens, particularly if you haven’t raised enough rice to feed your population. But I’ll leave those details to those who want to read the rules which are available online at: http://www.queen-games.de/index.php?option=com_docman&task=c...

Impressions and gameplay

I have to say I was disappointed. I’ll try to explain why I find this game lacking for me.

First, the mechanics seem too artificially constricting. It felt like we were playing the mechanics and not each other. In particular, this game often seemed like multiplayer solitaire, since most of the game is spent with each person silently planning his or her next ten actions. It plays too much like a puzzle, with not enough maneuver or conflict.

The game simply does not allow for a massive mobilization, or an outflanking war of maneuver. I felt extremely constrained. Shogun, essentially, puts the players on rails, where they cannot veer very far off the beaten path. Wargames, in contrast, generally allow the player all kinds of freedom. Granted, the goal in a wargame is generally very straightforward, for example, conquer some city, but the means to the end are completely open ended within the map’s boundaries. (Sidebar: maybe this is one reason wargames and Ameritrash games generally require more errata, since their ‘open architecture’ means that players will eventually find themselves in a situation never before encountered or imagined.)

This is not to say everyone has to follow the same strategy in Shogun, but their range of choices is strictly limited to a finite set. With various combinations of ten actions, five special cards, turn order, and geographic realities, this finite number is huge, to be sure, but it still feels limited. A player can produce one castle this turn, no more. He or she can’t forgo a castle to build more troops than allowed by the predefined actions. He can tax (for gold) one province only. And it can’t be the same province in which he built a castle. Why can’t he choose to tax additional provinces – with a corresponding penalty of course?

In Shogun there is no player elimination. There are no rules restricting it, but I can’t imagine how it could happen. Shogun achieves this by simply not allowing a significant amount of combat or maneuver. Each player can only attack, at most, 12 times in a game. It feels rather like a war played out in slow motion and ending after only the initial week of campaigning. If the game simply went on longer, you might actually get a decisive result.

But in the end it simply comes down to play style and expectations.

Fellow BGG’er Paul O’Conner, who had previously played Wallenstein but not Shogun, cautioned us (me, in particular) that this was a game of building and not of conquest. Advice I unwisely, but not uncharacteristically, ignored, to my own cost. While Paul studiously avoided conflict and built castles and temples, I invaded my neighbor. I generally chose the +1 to attacking armies benefit and tried to conquer my way to victory. In the game’s defense, I nearly succeeded and came in second to Paul, but even that relative success occurred mostly after I abandoned my ‘military first’ strategy and took up various construction projects.

Summary

There are many very smart people who love to do crosswords, puzzle over Sudoku, or play Chess. For folks like that, and for those who like tight mechanics, clearly delineated structure, and stellar production values, I would strongly recommend Shogun. But for folks who would rather launch a panzer spearhead into enemy lines and hope for a breakthrough, or want to maneuver to the flank to rake the enemy with enfilade fire, I recommend moving on. Likewise for those who happily tolerate some ambiguity in order to maximize their freedom of strategic and tactical choice.

I’m not sure I’ll play this one again, which is a shame. With such great bits, and the totally cool cube tower, I’m almost tempted to mod this game into something more conflict oriented. But with so many great games already out there, and so little time, this is unlikely to happen.

To those who will flame me for this review, just remember it is OKAY for us to like different games.

To those who want my copy of Shogun in trade…let me think on it a while. I still want to like this one and haven’t quite given up on it.
Last edited on 2007-11-26 18:00:24 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Colin Hunter
New Zealand
Auckland
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
Great review!
Paul O'Connor
United States
Carlsbad
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
0506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
I got spanked in my first half-dozen games of Wallenstein because I mistook it for a wargame. When I realized it was a building game, I was able to compete.

Our game of Shogun proved little different. It is still a game of complex inputs yielding largely random results.

Next time we should play Friedrich ...
Eric Williams
Australia
Queanbeyan
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mb
Thankyou for this review. I've often considered this game but it's a pricey game here in Oz and I've been concerned with how the cube tower would go down. Now I see how that is probably the least of my concerns.
M C
United States
Orem
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron05
mbmbmbmbmb
Once I started to think of this game as Advanced China I started liking it a lot more.
Piotr Jekel
Poland
Torun
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You hit the bull right in the eye with your review and I also do not find this game engaging at all. We have played 5 times to make sure we understand the mechanics and get the feel of the game, but it fell flat. Luckily, I have manged to trade it aways. My recommendation: Try it before buying. It is so high on the BGG that you probably expect something better.

As a side note, the battle tower was the best and most fun element in the game!
Last edited on 2007-11-27 03:00:41 CST (Total Number of Edits: 1)
Nick Bos
Denmark
Copenhagen Ø
Sjælland
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron07
mbmbmbmbmb
The game is disguised as a wargame, which it is not.
It's more of a resource management game.
I don't mind it, but I can see why people are put off by this.

Nice review!
Paulo Soledade
Portugal
Caranguejeira
Leiria
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
Shogun is not a wargame although it could seems like. Great review by the way. I like Shogun very much but then again I'm not a wargamer.
If you remove the tower you have a solid "area majority" eurogame played with cards. And that's more than fine for me. But I don't like crosswords, puzzle over Sudoku, or play Chess very much. I'd rather prefer "to Shogun". :)
Jim Marshall
United Kingdom
York
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0709
mbmbmbmbmb
Excellent review. I like Shogun (and most wargames), but you're right - a wargame is one thing it's not. As long as players realise this, they should be fine.

Cleitus the Black wrote:
In particular, this game often seemed like multiplayer solitaire, since most of the game is spent with each person silently planning his or her next ten actions.


That's not how I feel about the game. Certainly the players plan simultaneously and silently, but to do well you need to predict what the others will do, to make the most effective use of your turns while minimising the hurt the others cause you.

I see the simultaneous planning as a good thing, as it minimises downtime. For me a bane of many multi-player strategy games is the finger twiddling for all players but Charlie while Charlie thinks about his move, then the same for everyone but Steve while Steve thinks about his move...etc
Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
Belgium
Gijzegem
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0809
mbmbmbmbmb
Cleitus the Black wrote:
Fellow BGG’er Paul O’Conner, who had previously played Wallenstein but not Shogun, cautioned us (me, in particular) that this was a game of building and not of conquest.

A mistake many people make, but so true.
M C
United States
Orem
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron05
mbmbmbmbmb
http://spielbyweb.com has Wallenstein that you can play for free.
Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
050607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
While, in the opinions of some, Shogun/Wallenstein is not a "wargame", it is undeniably a game (and not a simulation) in which conflict is a tool. It is, for example, much safer to build improvements in provinces that are insulated from the enemy, and generally speaking, the only way to achieve that is to "build" a layer of insulation.

Even so, in a game that would be considered a simulation of feudal Japan, I think you're going to find it largely void of what it sounds like you seek - linear warfare, with opportunities for "spearheads" and the like. Feudal Japan was never such a critter.

Personally, I think feudal Japan was a bad idea for this game system, but the Thirty Years' War just doesn't have the attraction, lacking Richard Chamberlain mini-series and Tom Cruise movies, and whatnot. Still, it is a much better choice for this system than some better-organized party, like a World War.

Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
Good review!

My feelings toward this game (Wally really) were nearly identical. It should be a war game, but it is not.

also I can not help but feel that the game ends too soon. Anyone try this with like 5 turns and not 2? does it solve some of the issues with a game about war being more about building temples?

-M
Larry Baxter
United States
West Lafayette
Indiana
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron0708
mbmbmbmbmb
Nice review! I agree with your conclusion, though not all the points along the way. Almost all of the negative points you mentioned were true of any non-wargame board game. Lack of player elimination, especially for a 3-player game, is (for me) a huge plus, not a minus :meeple:

Any game in which your expectations differ from the reality can lead to a bad first impression. You won't find in Shogun accurate or advanced military tactics, but it's a highly engaging and well designed hybrid game that has diverse elements of interest to a wide variety of gamers.

Enfilade fire? Wasn't sure if that meant flanking fire or not, and had to look it up. Best definition ever can be found at:
http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent1/?file=dday_0014 :p

I love Shogun! (Then again I love chess, but I also like Squad Leader)
The key points of interest for me are:

- Well balanced resource management game
- Multiple strategic paths to victory
- The tower mechanism is really quite cool, which requires attention and thought to manage the luck/risk factors involved.
- Pace is superb, almost no downtime (a huge plus for a 2.5-3 hr game)
- Just enough luck to give everyone a chance, but good players
definitely tend to do well.
- Simultaneous action selection, with half of the cards hidden, makes for some very interesting turns, and some opportunities to hammer an unsuspecting opponent
- Theme works very well, and components are nice
- Elements of optimization (which I like) but definitely not MP solitaire (most solitaire players don't ever get 'invaded' :cool: ) - you definitely need to be ready to respond tactically and manage risk
- Handles 4-5 players well, without much increase in game length. 3-players works as well.

It's possible this game might never work for you - the inclusion of combat elements without the richness of wargame tactics might leave a taste as unsatisfying as a eurogamer playing a mechanically interesting game that happens to use a bucketful of dice :shake: The 'puzzle' aspect, for example, isn't likely to disappear with further play. But I do hope that you're able to at least give it a second chance now that you know better what to expect.

(While we're on the subject of hybrid games, euro with war elements, if you have any suggestions for war games with euro aspects, that incorporate some advanced tactics like the ones you mentioned without taking 6 to 18 hrs of play time, let me know. I'm a new fan of Hannibal Rome vs Carthage, miss old days of Squad Leader weekends, but can no longer set aside whole days to play a single game)
Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
ltbaxter wrote:

(While we're on the subject of hybrid games, euro with war elements, if you have any suggestions for war games with euro aspects, that incorporate some advanced tactics like the ones you mentioned without taking 6 to 18 hrs of play time, let me know. I'm a new fan of Hannibal Rome vs Carthage, miss old days of Squad Leader weekends, but can no longer set aside whole days to play a single game)


Have you tried Freidrich? I wouldn't say that you have many advanced tactics, but certainly a step up over shogun.

-M
Paul O'Connor
United States
Carlsbad
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
0506070809
mbmbmbmbmb
malloc wrote:
ltbaxter wrote:

(While we're on the subject of hybrid games, euro with war elements, if you have any suggestions for war games with euro aspects, that incorporate some advanced tactics like the ones you mentioned without taking 6 to 18 hrs of play time, let me know. I'm a new fan of Hannibal Rome vs Carthage, miss old days of Squad Leader weekends, but can no longer set aside whole days to play a single game)


Have you tried Freidrich? I wouldn't say that you have many advanced tactics, but certainly a step up over shogun.

-M


Yes, definitely Friedrich ... takes longer than Shogun, though, and the learning curve is sharper, especially if you are a new player trying to keep Prussia on its feet.
A. B. West
United States
Beech Grove
Indiana
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Agreed with all the compliments - very well done review. My problem with Shogun is AP. If you have someone in your game group that feels the need to think through all the options, this game will grind to a stop during the planning phase. Literally: 15-20 minutes (or more!) to layout the cards. Just too many possibilities to consider.

But I like this game quite a bit - just not as much as many others around here.
Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Shogun is a Euro game and has all the good and some of the bad characteristics of such. It's not a consim at all. The comments in the review, while understandable, clearly reflect thinking and wishing its more like a consim, but it was never intended to be that.
John G
United States
Salt Lake City
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Great perspective, Cleitus. I'd never really thought through how little it is like a wargame. When I think of a multiplayer wargame I think of A Game of Thrones (since I haven't tried Friedrich - yet). Shogun is definitely not like that (and even it is as much diplomacy as war).

Of the games in my collection, I'd probably most closely associate it with El Grande. I suspect it is also like China, which I own but have not played. It is more an area control type game than necessarily about conquering. War leads to attrition of your resources even in victory, which to me discourages conflict. Besides, tossing cubes in the tower feels like throwing them in El Castillo, even if they aren't really the same at all.

All that said, I really enjoyed the game the time or two I got to play and look forward to playing it again.
Andrew Carlstrom
United States
San Marcos
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
0607080910
mbmbmbmbmb
chargetheguns wrote:
Shogun is a Euro game and has all the good and some of the bad characteristics of such. It's not a consim at all. The comments in the review, while understandable, clearly reflect thinking and wishing its more like a consim, but it was never intended to be that.


That makes sense to me (in hindsight) but based on it being billed as a waro (wargame/euro crossover) I expected a bit more conflict.

In any case, its a solid game, just not my cup of tea.
Matthijs van Staalduine
Netherlands
Arnhem
Unspecified
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb

I had the same response to the game. I'm not much of a wargamer, but I like ameritrash games with good mechanics.

Based on your review, uou should give Fantasy Flight's Warrior Knights a try
What do you mean, there is no Purple in this game! You want me to play, don't you?
Netherlands
Eindhoven
Noord Brabant
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron070809
mbmbmbmbmb
Cleitus the Black wrote:
To those who want my copy of Shogun in trade…let me think on it a while. I still want to like this one and haven’t quite given up on it.


I think there is some reserve her, which says a lot. Nice review (also enjoyed Friedrich and Prussia's last stand reviews)

Cheers,

Logan
Paulo Santoro
Brazil
São Paulo
São Paulo
flag msg tools
Avatar
patron09
mbmbmbmbmb
Great review! You did not say "this is a bad game", instead said "X, Y and Z will like it, while T, V and W won't". This makes your review really useful, beyond personal preferences.

Thank you! :)
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | DMCA | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
BoardGameGeek and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.