J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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This commentary was written for and originally posted published on my blog.
Lokomotive Werks by Dieter Danziger is, to use Michael Webb's term (CortexBomb), very much a meat grinder of a game. While there is subtlety a-plenty it doesn't hold its punches with the opportunities for calculation or the surrounding machinery to grind the players. It is also oddly charming in a sort of plangently intense fashion: the beat of the trains just keeps on going, and going, and...
In short this is the train rust/rush mechanism of the 18XX abstracted fairly cleanly out into a standalone game. As an 18XX derivative it is cleaner, more accurate and more direct than Greentown is the 18XX track planning exercise. Thematically, Lokomotive Werks explains HOW and WHY trains rust and disappear in the 18XX. Players buy factories and capacity for those factories and then produce trains using them to meet demand and make money. Demand is a function of dice with a (roughly) one turn look-ahead. There are four parallel tracks of factory-types and as newer and more profitable factories enter the game the demand for the trains from older factories progressively dries up. The result is similar to the 18XX train rush and has similar levels of aggression, but is not as fast or as deliberately controlled (dice).
As might be expected this is a game of heavy elbows and a relentless player-driven pace. It is also a treadmill-game: players get on and proceed to run, scramble, fall, duck and pull themselves over the heaving bodies of the other players as they lunge for the end of the game. It is not subtle, not gentle, not genteel; elbows to throats and knees to the groin the whole way. Unlike other related titles, there's a healthy and even heavy dose of randomness in the dice. The randomness can be largely mitigated but it is a bit larger than I'm comfortable with and it can simply be impossible to mitigate effectively if the dice or cash don't come your way in time. The dice can and will throw the game. It won't happen often, there is room for considerable skill, but it will happen. The dice also seem to make the game more tactical then I'd prefer, but I suspect that with more long term information early advantages may be be impossible to overcome. The current random factors force a level of defensive play which acts as its own leveling stick.
While not really a calculator game as the sums are not that hard, I could easily see paper and pencil being popular. There's a lot of nickel and onesy/twosy calculations to do each turn in planning the exact dollar counts each player will have for the next turn and thus the resulting player order for the next turn. (Turn order is in order of increasing cash holdings) This is more than a bit fiddly. I'm tempted to roll capacity purchases and Locomotive Production together into a single seamless round: Player-1 buys capacity and does his first pass Production, Player-2 likewise etc, then iterate on Production until done. This would not change the actual game but would make the painful counting process just before Locomotive Production simpler and hopefully faster.
There is a catch-up mechanism turn order, and it is very good to be early in the turn order, but it isn't a gift. Turn order only works for you if you make it work, and that requires care and more than a modicum of exacting planning and having the cash to execute on that advantage. Fall too far behind and you are simply toast. Fall a bit behind however and your weapons can be fearsome!
I've played 2.5 times now (one was a solo-play). I could see Lokomotive Werks getting down under an hour with frequent play but I'm not sure if any group near me has the tolerance to play it that frequently. I'd like to try. While not a brain burner, it is an intensely focussed exercise that would be hard to play casually. On a similar note: There is a lot of money shuffling, so use poker chips.
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Burster of Bubbles, Destroyer of Dreams.
United States Sunnyvale California
Just imagine the red offboard up here. I'll create it Real Soon Now...
Yes, I know a proper 18XX tile should have a tile number.
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To be more precise: while in general it is to your advantage to be behind in cash, and thus early in the turn order, most notably for the production phase, occasionally you can get a huge benefit by being later in the turn order and taking advantage of a bigger factory type that another player has oh-so-conveniently made available for you.
It's perfectly OK to fall behind in turn order if there's lots of excess die pips for the factories you will be running.... until other people slip in and buy duplicate factories. (Thus, the lower-count factories are more powerful, even if they have other flaws.)
On the other hand, as JC said, even decent planning can get wrecked if you depend heavily on a type that just doesn't roll high numbers.
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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Morganza wrote: To be more precise: while in general it is to your advantage to be behind in cash, and thus early in the turn order, most notably for the production phase, occasionally you can get a huge benefit by being later in the turn order and taking advantage of a bigger factory type that another player has oh-so-conveniently made available for you.
True, and we both took good advantage of that last night. This is an amusingly subtle game.
Quote: Thus, the lower-count factories are more powerful, even if they have other flaws.
But their per-turn value variance is higher and their lifespans shorter due to the faster attrition rate from lost dice. Another subtlety. The blue #1 is particularly wonky in this regard.
Quote: On the other hand, as JC said, even decent planning can get wrecked if you depend heavily on a type that just doesn't roll high numbers.
Yup.
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James Ludlow
United States Saint Louis Park Minnesota
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Thanks for the overview. I bumped this on my wishlist from a "3" to a "2". I'm pretty much a whore for these older games though, so I'm fully aware that I'll buy it the first chance that I get.
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dale yu
United States Cincinnati Ohio
If you're not part of the soultion...
You're part of the precipitate!
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JC, this has long been a favorite of mine... and I fear I may even be responsible for showing it to CortexBomb at a Great Lakes Games many years ago...
clearclaw wrote: The dice can and will throw the game. It won't happen often, there is room for considerable skill, but it will happen. The dice also seem to make the game more tactical then I'd prefer, but I suspect that with more long term information early advantages may be be impossible to overcome. The current random factors force a level of defensive play which acts as its own leveling stick.
And this is one of the things that I love about the game... Without the randomness of the dice, a small advantage found early in the game would continue to multiply to create an unstoppable juggernaut by endgam
clearclaw wrote: While not really a calculator game as the sums are not that hard, I could easily see paper and pencil being popular.
I have 4 packs of post-it note paper in my LW box and 4 pens. We only keep track of money on these paper pads now. Everyone is entrusted with keeping their own bank, and we simply announce totals each round when we determine play order
clearclaw wrote: I'm tempted to roll capacity purchases and Locomotive Production together into a single seamless round: Player-1 buys capacity and does his first pass Production, Player-2 likewise etc, then iterate on Production until done. This would not change the actual game but would make the painful counting process just before Locomotive Production simpler and hopefully faster.
We tried this once and, for whatever reason, it did not make the game move any faster, and in fact confused one of the players.
clearclaw wrote: I've played 2.5 times now (one was a solo-play). I could see Lokomotive Werks getting down under an hour with frequent play but I'm not sure if any group near me has the tolerance to play it that frequently. I'd like to try. While not a brain burner, it is an intensely focussed exercise that would be hard to play casually. On a similar note: There is a lot of money shuffling, so use poker chips.
I'm maybe 15 to 20 games in... We can get the 4 player game done in 45 minutes or so now. And really, try the pen-and-paper method. It's so much faster - even poker chips will waste needless time passing them back and forth from the bank.
Dale
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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yudp wrote: And this is one of the things that I love about the game... Without the randomness of the dice, a small advantage found early in the game would continue to multiply to create an unstoppable juggernaut by endgame.
That was my impression.
Quote: I have 4 packs of post-it note paper in my LW box and 4 pens.
You don't play with 5? Our 5 player game was reasonable but my concern is that the fifth player may be necessarily more exposed to dice vagaries than the other players.
Quote: We only keep track of money on these paper pads now. Everyone is entrusted with keeping their own bank, and we simply announce totals each round when we determine play order.
Fair call. The one advantage this misses is the ease of visually checking other player's cash during the planning stages. That seems a heft penalty.
Quote: clearclaw wrote: I'm tempted to roll capacity purchases and Locomotive Production together into a single seamless round: Player-1 buys capacity and does his first pass Production, Player-2 likewise etc, then iterate on Production until done. This would not change the actual game but would make the painful counting process just before Locomotive Production simpler and hopefully faster. We tried this once and, for whatever reason, it did not make the game move any faster, and in fact confused one of the players.
How odd.
Quote: And really, try the pen-and-paper method. It's so much faster - even poker chips will waste needless time passing them back and forth from the bank.
Thanks, I will.
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dale yu
United States Cincinnati Ohio
If you're not part of the soultion...
You're part of the precipitate!
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JC, I likely have 5 pads/pens in the box... I have found that it gets a bit sticky with 5 and have tried to play with only 4 players since then
dale
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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Dale:
You mention that you play Lokomotive Werks in ~45 minutes. Do your players work in each turn to deliberately manipulate the turn order for the next turn? We played again this weekend and while I can imagine 45 minute games for Lokomotive Werks and Dutch Intercity, that's only if the players don't attempt to force the turn order sequencing to their benefit on each turn. In both of this weekend's games the players worked hard to get the turn order placement they needed/wanted, early or late, which easily added another 30 minutes to the game.
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dale yu
United States Cincinnati Ohio
If you're not part of the soultion...
You're part of the precipitate!
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JC, we definitely try to modify the turn order... As you've noted, sometimes it's good to go first and sometimes it's better to go last. The biggest time saver is keeping track of the money independently on paper. Each player can use their pad to calculate all their financial stuff.
Though my group doesn't play at Huber-speed (TM), we are a fairly fast group of players though so 45 mins for us may mean 60mins for mere mortals.
dale
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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yudp wrote: JC, we definitely try to modify the turn order... As you've noted, sometimes it's good to go first and sometimes it's better to go last.
We played again last night. At several points I needed to come before X and after Y. Getting my investments/capacity right to get the exact income I needed took a little juggling and time. The same occurred a few times with the other players.
Quote: The biggest time saver is keeping track of the money independently on paper. Each player can use their pad to calculate all their financial stuff.
Yeah, that idea didn't fly last night. Shrug. Certainly the litany of asking cash and income totals would not have helped our times.
Quote: Though my group doesn't play at Huber-speed (TM), we are a fairly fast group of players though so 45 mins for us may mean 60mins for mere mortals.
Also, do you normally blow through the green 5s before ending the game, or end before?
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dale yu
United States Cincinnati Ohio
If you're not part of the soultion...
You're part of the precipitate!
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clearclaw wrote: Also, do you normally blow through the green 5s before ending the game, or end before?
I'd say that we usually get into the Green 5's... but not necessarily "through" them before someone hits the target score.
Dale
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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yudp wrote: I'd say that we usually get into the Green 5's... but not necessarily "through" them before someone hits the target score.
Last night's 3 player game was the first in which all of us hung back, sometimes a lot, building capacity and cash rather than pushing the train rush. I had almost $100 cash before I finally bought the Blue 2. Nobody wanted the Green 2 or the Red 3 and the game ended with only two of the Green 5s sold. Very interesting -- I was surprised at how well it did with three players.
As a convenience we often played out a whole player's turn before the next player decided on their capacity purchases. This may have added time to the game but helped the decision process a lot as the players juggled placement aggressively for the short-listed factories. Neat game. The luck of the dice still bugs the crap out of me, it is a most unwelcome tax, but for now I'm living with it.
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Scott Russell
United States Clarkston Michigan
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After the first couple turns, we do the first player completing his turn through his first pass. I am convinced that it speeds things up, but with a few players it did lead to some confusion.
I greatly prefer this one with four or three to five.
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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qzhdad wrote: After the first couple turns, we do the first player completing his turn through his first pass. I am convinced that it speeds things up, but with a few players it did lead to some confusion.
I've played both ways. With experienced players it seems fine for the early players to resolve as much of the factory/capacity/production as they can while other players cogitate.
Quote: I greatly prefer this one with four or three to five.
I've played mostly three and four player games. Both work well but I am a little concerned over how readily players will get factories exclusively to themselves with those player counts (3 more so than 4). The few 5 player games we've played also worked well, had almost no exclusive factories other than the Blue 1 and were far more aggressive during the mid-range factories (the most interesting portion of the game for me). I suspect that 4 or 5 will end up being my favourite player count and am currently leaning toward 5.
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Snooze Festival
United States Hillsborough North Carolina
We love our pups!! Misu, RIP 28 Nov 2010. Tikka, RIP 11 Aug 2011.
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Re: Tracking Money
Have any of you used a simple generic score track for the money? It seems as if that would be the easiest way to deal with money in a way that everyone can still see each other's totals.
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J C Lawrence
United States Campbell California
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snoozefest wrote: Have any of you used a simple generic score track for the money? It seems as if that would be the easiest way to deal with money in a way that everyone can still see each other's totals.
No, I've thought about it but haven't bothered. There's so much money movement the ease of knocking a marker may be a little too high.
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