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Subject: The Abject Failure That Is Called "Gateway" rss

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         The Abject Failure That Is Called "Gateway"

    We all have a story to tell. For many of us we're the star of the tale, for others it's about a friend, or a spouse, or a relative or maybe someone on a plane that looks over your shoulder as you're reading a rule book to something new. It's the story of someone getting hooked on exotic boardgames and seeing the light of just how immersive, how intellectually stimulating, how rewarding it can be to step out of the dark ages of Monopoly into a world enlightenment. We all have one, and it may be that you're actively trying to create a few more stories just like it.

    Likely you're considering one of your stories right now. My personal favorite is my own personal entry into modern boardgaming, via what is in my opinion the best candidate for a gateway game you could ever think of -- The Queen's Necklace. Blind bidding, variable market valuation, dynamic ruleset based on cards in play, tons of hidden information, all the things you look for in a classic gateway game are there, except maybe for fiddly bits. Hang on, it has those too now that I think about it. It's a perfect gateway game, and once I played it, I had to have a copy.

    That thin, thin slice of amusement is at the heart of the issue.

    We classify games as "Gateway" because we think they will be accessible to the unwashed masses. They're pretty, they're simple, they're short and unimposing, and because we can imagine someone who isn't as "enlightened" as ourselves indulging in them and maybe even enjoying the play a bit we've decided that they will provide a bridge to the really good games, and that the journey across that bridge will be smooth and rewarding, at least for some subset of the people that we spend the time to educate. With care and an appropriate amount of nurturing, we can turn these people into gamers.

    And so we play. We teach Ma Lost Cities or we give our nephew Ticket to Ride for Christmas. We drop Coloretto in the lap of people playing Rack-O in the hotel lobby. They try them out and . . . hallelujah! They enjoy it! They're in! They're making the journey! We bring our copies of Cartagena and Warrior Knights with us to the next family reunion, and when we offer to set up a game . . .

    . . . Ok. At least they're polite about it. They smile and nod and indicate that the tile game with the towns and the roads was fine and that they really enjoyed it, but that's where they'd like it to end. You see, they didn't want to play a "gateway" game and in their mind they didn't. They played a "different" game, and they're comfortable letting it replace Parcheesi and Monopoly on the rare occasion that they sit down to play with friends or family. The new game is fine, but that's where it's going to end because they just don't want to spend the time learning a new game each time they sit down with you and any rules complications are just something they have no interest in or time for. One is enough.

    Gateway just failed. Again.

    And fail it does, with remarkable predictability. More than a few of you shake your head reading this, because even though this has happened to you any number of times, on occasion, and with some of the most surprising people, you've succeeded in making inroads. You've made the difference in someone's life! You've enlightened them and brought them into the inner circle of the gaming elite!

    But that's exactly gateway's misconception, and the reason that The Queen's Necklace makes every bit as good a gateway game as the usual suspects do. On those rare occasions where the introduction of a more modern, complex game actually sticks, it's likely that the choice of game is of little consequence or none at all -- you've converted someone that was already standing in the doorway of the church, and your choice of hymn didn't really make a lot of difference either way. In fact selecting a softball may have actually been counterproductive.

    Merely a theory? Sure. But Ticket to Ride has more than one million copies in print if the front of its box is to be believed. Agricola, generally touted as the cardboard incarnation of Jesus by the gaming elite, is rumored to be getting printed in groups of only 5,000 or so. Apparently Z-Man isn't expecting the unwashed masses to storm their doors, and for good reason. One million copies of Ticket to Ride likely means four million players of it, and if "gateway" worked, if T2R had led to the harder drugs, if even 1% of the uninitiated had become enlightened through our efforts to show them how much fun gaming can be, then surely sales for highly-regarded titles would be brisker. But they're not, and that just doesn't add up, especially since the two are similar in look, feel and target market. The transition from the entry-level to the advanced simply doesn't happen.

    Is it because we're not trying hard enough, or is it because "gateway" doesn't exist? Gateway is a concept that we have talked ourselves into, but in reality it's nothing more than a thin piece of common ground that allows our friends and families to spend time with us enjoyably, or at least tolerably. They permit one title (maybe two) to enter into their world, provided they're simple enough, short enough, polite enough, and pretty enough to let them play without too much hassle or time. It's a thin little slice of something new, and that's all they're looking for. Gateway X was just a fun, accessible game to them, and that's where they want to stop. It's sufficient to scratch their mild itch, and maybe, just maybe, they were telling you that they sat down at the table to spend time with you, not the piece of cardboard on the table in between.

             Sag.





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J.L. Robert
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You scared me for a moment.

The Labor Day Weekend convention in the L.A. area is called Gateway.

Sorry about the unsuccessful experience.
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Rhonda Bender
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Sometimes I don't understand why something like this would be considered a failure. Or why people who choose to play a handful of games regularly and repeatedly instead of hundreds of games a handful of times each aren't worthy of being considered people who like games. Or why using games as a sort of social lubrication is so looked down upon compared to considering games as ways of proving our superior critical strategy skills.

I do understand what people get disappointed with - if you're a hardcore gamer of course it's natural to dream that you can convert as many friends and family members as possible to like your hobby so you can spend your time with them doing your favourite thing. But as they're no more likely to convert us to liking scrap booking or antiqueing or mini-golf or whatever their passion is if we weren't pre-disposed to like it anyway, so why is it so different for us?
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Rik Van Horn
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People like what they like. Look at what's popular.
Why do more people buy Britney Spears music than Joanna Newsom?
Why do more people watch Gray's Anatomy than The Wire?
Why do more people play Monopoly than Age of Steam?
The answer usually is that most people enjoy simpler, more easily digested things over more substantial and higher quality items.
I used to sweat this, mainly in the musical area. Now I show, I praise, I introduce. But if they don't bite, I don't waste any more time on them.
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The Galaxy is Just Packed!
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I can't speak for the world, here in the U S of A, a vast majority of people really don't want to think. Not deep down. Either because they are tired or busy or stressed or simply uninformed, they don't seek out anything but "normal." Look at popular music, popular television, popular news channels, popular political commentators, popular books, popular anything, and you'll see a preponderance of "please don't make me think."

Hell, half of us voted for Bush a second time. I'll give them the 1st, but the 2nd?

People (for the most part) want to be spoon-fed their entertainment. Occasionally they will enter a thought-provoking discourse or activity, but it's usually the exception and rarely the norm.

Even gateway games make you think. And as a nice diversion, they are a nice diversion. But that's what they will remain. A momentary diversion in between spoon-feedings.

Kinda sad, really.
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M Dornbrook
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Sag, your piece is poetic and insightful. Personally, I feel that there is no "conversion" to board games. Either it is in one's heart or it is not. Often, we are just introducing gaming to others who are already gamers.

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Christopher Taylor
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J.L.Robert wrote:
You scared me for a moment.

The Labor Day Weekend convention in the L.A. area is called Gateway.

Sorry about the unsuccessful experience.


That was my first thought, too!
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suPUR DUEper
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For me, Gateway=Catalyst. If the conditions are right, the correct choice of game can turn a turn the person on to a whole new hobby Everyone of us here at BGG had a "gateway" experience somewhere up the line or we wouldn't be gamers today. We certainly can't say that gateway games have a 0% chance of success. I don't get overly concerned that it doesn't have a 100% (or 50% or 25%) success rate.

Here's the thing, if only one in a hundred people are going to be interested in our hobby, we need to work the denominator and expose more people to games instead of fretting that the numerator is too small.
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Caleb
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I think what Sag is trying to say is that we often think that if we'd only select the *right* game for some person, they'd be hooked into our style of games and become as passionate as we are about the hobby. But it doesn't work like that, because it's not a function of the game; it's a function of the individual. The vast majority of people don't play good games because they're not interested. Not because they don't know any good games (although maybe they don't), but because they're not "into" games. So it doesn't matter what game you use to "hook" them; they'll remain non-gamers (or at best, casual gamers who are willing to game with you because they know you enjoy it and it's not like they hate it or anything).
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Stven Carlberg
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TedW wrote:
Every one of us here at BGG had a "gateway" experience somewhere up the line or we wouldn't be gamers today.


Well, no, that's not exactly the case. I think it's generally true that every culture has games. Everybody knows about games. Some people like games, and others don't. I was one of the ones who did. Was Parcheesi my "gateway" game because it was my first board game? Was Crazy Eights my "gateway" game because it got me thinking strategically about card distributions? Was Monopoly my "gateway" game because I thought when I found it at age 7 that it was so totally fascinating? Was Pit my "gateway" game because it's the first one I got to play with the grownups when I was 4? None of these was a "gateway" -- I was already a gamer. I was just looking for games to play.

Some people like to play games. Others don't. The trick is simply to connect the people who like to play games with good games for them to play. If you want to call that a "gateway," fine. But a gateway is only any good if somebody's already in the neighborhood.
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Scott Alden
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I don't think that Queen's Necklace is a gateway game. There are far too many special rules and fiddly bits for it to work as one. The first time I played it, I had no idea what to do - it's not intuitive at all
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Rokkr wrote:
People like what they like. Look at what's popular.
Why do more people buy Britney Spears music than Joanna Newsom?
Why do more people watch Gray's Anatomy than The Wire?
Why do more people play Monopoly than Age of Steam?
The answer usually is that most people enjoy simpler, more easily digested things over more substantial and higher quality items.

I disagree with your conclusion. I think it's just that people haven't been exposed to what they really like. I believe that everyone has their own unique tastes; but the vast majority of people haven't really discovered their tastes.

I know that I generally disliked movies until I saw Evil Dead II - it changed my outlook on what cinema could be, and changed my life by showing me that there was stuff out there that I would love if only I could find it. Since then I've had similar experiences with most other forms of entertainment, from radio plays to music to video games (I'm not sure I've had such an experience yet with board games, actually. But I know I will if I keep looking, because that's how it works). The thing that changed was that I realized I had to discover the stuff that was right for me.

I think most people see entertainment mediums as a distraction at best. They're not looking for something they love, just for something to pass the time. But everyone has something they love; they just need to discover it. Unfortunately, if they haven't discovered it, they're going to settle for whatever crap the mainstream throws at them. This is the real reason that mainstream entertainment is shit, not apathy and not stupidity. People just haven't found that life-changing thing yet.

Sag makes a good point. Why should people love "gateway" games when they're not the best game for them personally? Obviously, you can't be sure what people will love. But maybe, rather than focusing on the simplest games, we should focus on the ones that best fit the person's personality, regardless of complexity.

PS: Judging by your avatar, your struggle for people to accept your music was a righteous one. Don't give up, the more people that listen to the Cramps, the more awesome there is in the world.
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Ernesto Cabrera
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bryanwinter wrote:
I can't speak for the world, here in the U S of A, a vast majority of people really don't want to think. Not deep down. Either because they are tired or busy or stressed or simply uninformed, they don't seek out anything but "normal." Look at popular music, popular television, popular news channels, popular political commentators, popular books, popular anything, and you'll see a preponderance of "please don't make me think."

Hell, half of us voted for Bush a second time. I'll give them the 1st, but the 2nd?

People (for the most part) want to be spoon-fed their entertainment. Occasionally they will enter a thought-provoking discourse or activity, but it's usually the exception and rarely the norm.

Even gateway games make you think. And as a nice diversion, they are a nice diversion. But that's what they will remain. A momentary diversion in between spoon-feedings.

Kinda sad, really.


I live in Mexico City, Mexico.

I've managed to taught games to over 10 people, most of wich were pleased with the experience, a lot because it was "new" or just "different".

I've managed to reclute 0 people into the hobby, I mean... none. None of them are actually interested in gaming, not because theyre stupid or really don't care about "knowing something new", the people I choose to introduce the games to are deep thoughtful persons, that don't care for the "vast mayority of people", they're deep-music lovers, mathematicians, economist, acomplished computer geeks, intelligent people.

"Popular" doesn't mean that what you hear, do or play is actually "better" or you're special for liking it. Every time I try I give a Porcupine Tree, Mastodon, Rush, Kansas or Metallica record to everyone I kown, hoping they somehow like it, but I don't call them "stupid" for not liking it, I give them credit for listening to it and choosing not to like it.

My point: I don't feel I'm "making people better" because I teach geek games to them or give proggresive or metal records to them, I'm just happy that they know thay have the choice to... well... choose.

Most people are like this, they're not blindfolded stupids that don't have a choice of what they want... they choose to be blindfolded, they choose to be stupid, they choose to elect someone to make stupid choices for them.

Sidenote: Same thing is applied to the "gateway drug", if people like it, good, maybe they go deep into drugs maybe they don't, if they don't like it... it's OK. They were already given the choice

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Todd Pytel
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mdornbrook wrote:
Either it is in one's heart or it is not. Often, we are just introducing gaming to others who are already gamers.

I'll second this, along with cannoneer's similar comment. In some sense, there are certainly such things as "gateway" games... for people who are already gamers. Maybe not BGG-style, drooling-on-the-animeeples gamers. Maybe not board-gamers in any way. Maybe they're video gamers. Maybe they like fantasy football. Maybe they loved Tolkien as a child, but never got up the courage to play D&D with the RPG nerds. But somewhere in their personality is some interest in the competition, analysis, or other aspects of gaming. I know lots of smart, analytical, competitive people that just have no interest in gaming of any sort. It's simply not the way they want to spend their leisure time. That's fine - they do other cool stuff that I can't quite bring myself to be interested in.

But I do feel that this point is often lost on people here, what with the endless discussions of the "proper progression" from this game to that other one. It's certainly the worst with the newbie wargamer crowd - "See, I've got this 19-step plan to start my girlfriend off with Memoir `44 and work our way up to ASL". I can practically feel her eyes shooting daggers at her blithely enthusiastic partner just reading about it. There's nothing wrong with having some gateway games around - sometimes you might spark something that the new player didn't even realize they enjoyed. But I'd consider that the exception rather than the rule. If you don't see that spark after a session or two, just let it go. Not everyone wants to be a gamer, and to pretend otherwise is to be just as insensitive and ignorant as the gaming evangelists often proclaim others to be.
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Oliver Macdonald
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Not everyone will want to be a hobby gamer. For me, playing games has been a big part of my life for nearly 40 years. I'm happy to spend my hard earned cash and waste at least one evening a week doing something more than watching television.

However, just as I really enjoy taking my son to see a football match, if it wasn't for him I wouldn't pay the sport any attention (except perhaps on the rare occasions England might get somewhere). Likewise, there are many people who will enjoy playing an occasional game but for whom gaming will never be a big part of their lives - they have other interests. Gateway games let us gaming geeks occasionally enjoy a game with 'ordinary people', broadens the experience of those same people so that they may enjoy playing games more often and just once in a while may introduce new people to the hobby.

I think the evidence is that it's working too. When I was young hobby gamers tended to be wargamers, or later on roleplayers, both of which imho have a relatively narrow appeal. Since the Eurogame revolution there seem to be far more and a much wide range of people in the hobby, and far more games around as well. I now know gaming groups scattered all over the UK, With little difficulty I've found a group here in Parma and met up with one in Bratislava when I was working there for a few weeks. Our home gaming group sometimes get 10 or 12 people turning up and the local games club in York regularly gets 20-30 people from children to the retired, both men and women. There is a separate wargaming and roleplaying club as well.

The success rate may not be high but abject failure, absolutely not.
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stephen
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If you judge gateway games by the number of gamers they have recruited to the hobby then I agree with the OP, they are not especially successful in creating new gamers. My own record is O gamers created, by that I mean none of those I have attempted to convert to gaming (and were not already semi gamers from the rpg or videogame world)have gone on to buy a new game themselves.

But I also look at gateway games as a way of showing people what it is I do and share my interest. I have demonstrated lots of games and i have made a great many people at least think that there is more to the gaming world than the limited high street selection of games like monopoly. I even have non gamers requesting board game evenings and asking to play a game they have seen me lugging about. Its not about converting people to games, its about bridging the divide between us and them, taking people from not even knowing about games to believing that they can be a suitable and enjoyable entertainment for an evening.

Gateway works, not as well as we would like perhaps, but it does work. If you renamed them bridging games I think it would more aptly fit what they do, but its not as catchy a name.
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Steve Bauer
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It's only a failure if you didn't enjoy the game.

I think all people like games on some level. I don't see it as trying to convert them to gamers, they just need to find the types of games that are for them. For any person there is a range of games they like, people can grow and change over time but for the most part don't and you like what you like. The number of people that are going to like complex, lengthy games is going to be similar to the number of people that like complex, lengthy anything, small.

I don't see it as a failure that someone I have taught Ticket to ride or
Carcassonne likes it but never plays any other games. I expect it and it is normal, very few people will come to like games like Age of Steam or Die Macher (Haven't played Queen' Necklace). I enjoy playing casual games with casual gamers, if you don't you should not play with them.

I think trying to teach people with complex games is going to be frustrating for both you and the person you are teaching. Without the context and experience of other games and the practice of picking up rules it is to much of a shock to the system for most.
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ssmooth wrote:
TedW wrote:
Every one of us here at BGG had a "gateway" experience somewhere up the line or we wouldn't be gamers today.


Well, no, that's not exactly the case. I think it's generally true that every culture has games. Everybody knows about games. Some people like games, and others don't. I was one of the ones who did. Was Parcheesi my "gateway" game because it was my first board game? Was Crazy Eights my "gateway" game because it got me thinking strategically about card distributions? Was Monopoly my "gateway" game because I thought when I found it at age 7 that it was so totally fascinating? Was Pit my "gateway" game because it's the first one I got to play with the grownups when I was 4? None of these was a "gateway" -- I was already a gamer. I was just looking for games to play.

Some people like to play games. Others don't. The trick is simply to connect the people who like to play games with good games for them to play. If you want to call that a "gateway," fine. But a gateway is only any good if somebody's already in the neighborhood.


No, I don't think Crazy Eights, Parcheesi or Monopoly are "gateway". In the context of this discussion on this site, a gateway game is not a game that attempts to introduce games to someone who has never played before. It is a game that takes someone to the "BGG level" of gaming (i.e. Puerto Rico, Twilight Struggle, Race for the Galaxy, War for the Ring, etc). Each one of us probably had some experience that brought us to this level.

I don't agree that there are just two kinds of people in the world: gamers and non gamers (like we all have some gaming gene or something). It might be better to say that almost everyone has tried games and their preferences, receptiveness, interest and level of commitment vary dramatically. The function of a BGG gateway game is to provide a vehicle to introduce our style of gaming to someone who has never been exposed to this style before.

So again, going back to gateway equaling catalyst, a gateway game cannot magically change all people into Goa lovers. But it can, given the right conditions, introduce people to our little niche of boardgames.

And yes, our success rate is low because we have a very specialized, narrow interest (i.e. relatively heavy boardgames) in a broad subject area (i.e. recreational activities including board games, video games, card games, computer games, sports, abstract games, fantasy leagues, betting, etc.).

 
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cannoneer wrote:
I think what Sag is trying to say is that we often think that if we'd only select the *right* game for some person, they'd be hooked into our style of games and become as passionate as we are about the hobby. But it doesn't work like that, because it's not a function of the game; it's a function of the individual. The vast majority of people don't play good games because they're not interested. Not because they don't know any good games (although maybe they don't), but because they're not "into" games. So it doesn't matter what game you use to "hook" them; they'll remain non-gamers (or at best, casual gamers who are willing to game with you because they know you enjoy it and it's not like they hate it or anything).


Okay, so let's assume that that is what Sag meant and he is right. What course of action does that translate into? How does this new theory affect how we live our lives? What changes do I make in my behavior in light of this new info?

Do I stop introducing people to heavier gsmes (and Queen's Necklace counts as a heavier game in this context)?
Do I use ASL and Fire in the East to recruit wargamers because "it's not a function of the game"
Do I just game with my current group?
Or, maybe it doesn't affect me at all because I wasn't under the illusion in the first place that I could magically transform a guhjillion people into gamers if only they tried Lost Cities....

Gateway games exist. However, there a few caveats:

Gateway does not guarantee success
Gateway doesn't have to mean "fast, light and easy". ASL could be a gateway game to a high school kid who loves war movies and military history.
Gateway is an introduction to our specific niche of the hobby. Kinda like when a friend discovers classical music or speed metal. Maybe you like it, probably you don't.

More to the point, using Heroscape, Citadels, Hive and Settlers of Catan I've gotten six folks to regularly play BGG style games over the course of the last year.
Do they play the games w/out me? Yes.
Are they BGG members? No
Would another choice of game worked? Probably.
Would any choice (e.g Twlight Imperium or Paths of Glory) have worked? No.
Would they be playing these games had I not "gateway'ed" them? Nope.

Think Morpheus in the Matrix. The red pill works and can wake you up but it doesn't work on everybody. Stop saying the red pill is a failure when you are force feeding it to every friend and family member who has a pulse.
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Tiago Nunes
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For me a gateway game is a game that allows play with non-gamer people, it's not a game that'll get other people hooked on the hobby and make them buy lots of games.

For someone to get hooked, probably the person has to be a bit geeky already.
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Now a Major General
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    Please note that the reference to Queen's Necklace being a "gateway" was an attempt at irony, which apparently wasn't clearly enough described. If one considers how ill-suited the game is to the concept I think much of the remainder of my submission falls a bit more clearly into place.

             Sag.


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Sagrilarus wrote:
Merely a theory? Sure. But Ticket to Ride has more than one million copies in print if the front of its box is to be believed. Agricola, generally touted as the cardboard incarnation of Jesus by the gaming elite, is rumored to be getting printed in groups of only 5,000 or so. Apparently Z-Man isn't expecting the unwashed masses to storm their doors, and for good reason. One million copies of Ticket to Ride likely means four million players of it, and if "gateway" worked, if T2R had led to the harder drugs, if even 1% of the uninitiated had become enlightened through our efforts to show them how much fun gaming can be, then surely sales for highly-regarded titles would be brisker. But they're not, and that just doesn't add up, especially since the two are similar in look, feel and target market. The transition from the entry-level to the advanced simply doesn't happen.


Well, one million copies realistically means one million players or less. Not everybody who buys it plays it, not everybody who plays it buys it, not everybody finds three or four other players and not everybody who plays it plays their own copy. Some people have more than one copy and so on - you get the picture.

More importantly, playing or owning a game that has as such broken into the mainstream (albeit a small corner of it - I've seen it sold in major bookstores for example) does not educate the players on the finer things in gaming.

Sagrilarus wrote:
Is it because we're not trying hard enough, or is it because "gateway" doesn't exist? Gateway is a concept that we have talked ourselves into, but in reality it's nothing more than a thin piece of common ground that allows our friends and families to spend time with us enjoyably, or at least tolerably. They permit one title (maybe two) to enter into their world, provided they're simple enough, short enough, polite enough, and pretty enough to let them play without too much hassle or time. It's a thin little slice of something new, and that's all they're looking for. Gateway X was just a fun, accessible game to them, and that's where they want to stop. It's sufficient to scratch their mild itch, and maybe, just maybe, they were telling you that they sat down at the table to spend time with you, not the piece of cardboard on the table in between.


Exactly right; you present the access point but it's up to people to take it. I have successfully run games with family members and work colleagues on different occasions and they always worked, but nothing instilled a desire in any of them to pursue gaming as anything more than a pastime. That means some of them have gone out and bought (or rather got me to buy for them) copies of games I introduced to them; but nothing more. Nobody signed up to BGG and nobody expressed a desire to attend one of my hosted sessions - as expected really. So I guess "gateway" exists but only as an abstract concept like "Ameritrash" or "Eurosnoot".
 
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Toasted Jones
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You raise some good points, people generally don't want to learn new stuff in their free time. They also don't want to spend 2hrs plus out of their evening. It's something different and takes them out of their comfort zone.

You know when games have won over your audience when they ask questions such as, how do I get Victory points? Do you produce anything in this game? Rule explanation and game length suddenly become a problem of the past!
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Mike Jones
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Aldie wrote:
I don't think that Queen's Necklace is a gateway game. There are far too many special rules and fiddly bits for it to work as one. The first time I played it, I had no idea what to do - it's not intuitive at all


I would have said the same thing. But, in reading Sag's long disceration, I was formulating my response.

"The Masses are Asses" -- I personally don't see 'Gateway' games as a way to get the 'unwashed' masses into gaming. We talk about 'gateway' games a lot and the list usually includes a lot of Euros. Why? Because those are 'Gateways' into board gaming or Euro gaming. If we where on Consim or TMP are list of 'Gateways' would look differently because they would be 'gateways' to War gaming or Miniature Gaming. (ok and they would probably not call them 'gateways').

I see Gateways as getting someone that is already 'interested' in gaming to understand the value of board gaming. Sure, they have a higher chance of getting the unwashed into board gaming too. BUt, face in most people like Monopoly, Life, Sorry, etc. as their family games and that's fine for them. But, family gaming isn't gaming.

So, if I think 'Gateways' are more for people already inclined to enjoy games of some sort, then maybe Queen's Necaklace is a Gateway?

(It was a complete failure as a family game with my family)
 
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Sagrilarus wrote:
Quote:
ASL could be a gateway game to a high school kid who loves war movies and military history.



It could be saw it was my gateway game into the gaming hobby in general, that was my first board game experience and gaming in general. I think I played that before D&D.
 
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