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Sawhorse + Fence Deliveryman
Hi,
i'm not really sure about that combo (Sawhorse + Fence Deliveryman) even not, when reading the Compendium.
I have built no fences yet and have played both cards earlier, when the round starts where i can build fences from the Fence Deliveryman.
How much fences can i build now? 4 or 6?
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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Good question. My intuitive answer is that, yes, they combine and you get to build six fences, but I could be wrong for some procedural reason. I'd say let's see what Eugene, Hanno, and others have to say.
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I feel like they don't combine. Sawhorse gives a discount to building fences normally; Fence Deliveryman is a completely different mechanism. If anything, you should pay less food to buy the deliveryman's fences, but the ratio's wrong -- you'd have to pay 1.333 food, which is of course impossible.
But, like Geoff, I'm hardly authoritative on this subject.
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Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
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Derakon wrote: I feel like they don't combine. Sawhorse gives a discount to building fences normally; Fence Deliveryman is a completely different mechanism. If anything, you should pay less food to buy the deliveryman's fences, but the ratio's wrong -- you'd have to pay 1.333 food, which is of course impossible.
But, like Geoff, I'm hardly authoritative on this subject.
Building fences is building fences. It doesn't matter if they're free or not, you're still building fences.
Of course they combine.
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Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Den Haag
Altijd zin in een spelletje!
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MisterG wrote: Good question. My intuitive answer is that, yes, they combine and you get to build six fences, ...
I think this is based on a misinterpretation of the Sawhorse. It does not give you extra fences: it modifies the cost of fence building. So you can't build more than 4 fences in this case.
And because the Fence Deliveryman does not let you pay for the individual fences, but only for the entire action, it's hard to see what discount the Sawhorse could give.
I agree with Derakon: they do not combine.
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pijll wrote: MisterG wrote: Good question. My intuitive answer is that, yes, they combine and you get to build six fences, ... I think this is based on a misinterpretation of the Sawhorse. It does not give you extra fences: it modifies the cost of fence building. So you can't build more than 4 fences in this case. And because the Fence Deliveryman does not let you pay for the individual fences, but only for the entire action, it's hard to see what discount the Sawhorse could give. I agree with Derakon: they do not combine.
I think i agree with this ruling, despite the fact i was planning to bulid 6 fences this way.
But i recommend to add a comment on this to the compendium.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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pijll wrote: MisterG wrote: Good question. My intuitive answer is that, yes, they combine and you get to build six fences, ... I think this is based on a misinterpretation of the Sawhorse. It does not give you extra fences: it modifies the cost of fence building. So you can't build more than 4 fences in this case. And because the Fence Deliveryman does not let you pay for the individual fences, but only for the entire action, it's hard to see what discount the Sawhorse could give. I agree with Derakon: they do not combine.
I will certainly stand by whatever ruling is eventually made, but can't help but continue the discussion. I also can't help but agree with BT's comment that "building fences is building fences." FD allows the building of four fences at a cost of two food. It makes no mention of other effects not being concatenable; indeed, Hedge Keeper works in tandem with it quite nicely. It doesn't say you have to build all four fences in a row. All it really says is that every third fence is free. I am thus hard-pressed to see why you can't put down two FD fences (#1,#2), add a Sawhorse fence (#3), put down two more FD fences (#4,#5) and then finish with another Sawhorse fence (#6). There's no question that fences #1,#2,#4, & #5 are prepaid, so to speak, but that doesn't negate Sawhorse's ability to "pay for" #3 and #6.
Why would Fence Deliveryman negate the ordinal position of your fences?
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My take on it is this: when you have the Sawhorse and build fences, some number of them are free. You still have to build them, though, even if you pay nothing for them. Let's say I had a minor improvement that read "Immediately build up to 6 fences, paying costs as normal." So normally I could build 6 fences and pay 6 wood; with the Sawhorse, I could build 6 fences and pay 4 wood. I couldn't build 8 fences for 6 wood because the minor only lets me build 6.
The same thing goes for Fence Deliveryman. He's specifying a number of fences you build -- four, each time the delivery arrives -- so that's how many you get. If you had to pay wood instead of food for them, then I'd argue that Sawhorse should give you a discount on the wood you pay. But you pay food instead (and moreover not at a 1:1 ratio), which confuses Sawhorse's discounting, so I just say that they don't stack at all.
Hedgekeeper is different because it specifically gives bonus fences whenever you build any number of fences. Fence Deliveryman does count as building fences, so Hedgekeeper kicks in.
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Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
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It can't be one and not the other. Both Hedgekeeper and Sawhorse act when you build fences, it doesn't make logical sense that one would work with the Delivery and one would not.
You're building fences, and all benefits apply, including Sawhorse Keeper Farmer and the guy who let's you buy animals. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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Derakon wrote: Hedgekeeper is different because it specifically gives bonus fences whenever you build any number of fences. Fence Deliveryman does count as building fences, so Hedgekeeper kicks in.
These two sentences contradict each other.
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Hedgekeeper gives bonus fences. Sawhorse gives a discount on building fences. Do you see the difference between these two things? That seems to be the fundamental issue that we're butting heads over.
If Sawhorse said "You receive a free fence after building your 2nd, 5th, etc. fence" then I'd agree with you -- you'd get the extra fences when the Deliveryman's fences arrive. But it doesn't. It says "Your 3rd, 6th, etc. fences are free." Which is completely different. You have to be in a situation in which you're paying the normal costs for fences before you get that benefit.
I'd like to hear how you think my hypothetical 6-fence-building minor would interact with Sawhorse.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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Derakon wrote: Hedgekeeper gives bonus fences. Sawhorse gives a discount on building fences. Do you see the difference between these two things? That seems to be the fundamental issue that we're butting heads over.
If Sawhorse said "You receive a free fence after building your 2nd, 5th, etc. fence" then I'd agree with you -- you'd get the extra fences when the Deliveryman's fences arrive. But it doesn't. It says "Your 3rd, 6th, etc. fences are free." Which is completely different. You have to be in a situation in which you're paying the normal costs for fences before you get that benefit.
I'd like to hear how you think my hypothetical 6-fence-building minor would interact with Sawhorse.
Hmmm. I think what we're getting into is the problem of properly phrasing rules text. I understand the hypothetical Minor as you have explained it, but see no reason not to argue that Sawhorse would apply to it as well; the text you've given it is still open-ended. It says you can build up to six fences using the card, without stating that you can't add additional fences due to other cards. I note that you still had to qualify your wording with an additional statement. Your dismissal of Sawhorse, in this case, would seem to also dismiss Hedge Keeper from being applied to your hypothetical, or at best limits it to reducing the cost of the card to 3Wood, true?
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Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
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I can't see how these cards don't combine.
With Delivery you're paying 2F for 4 fences. If you have Hedgekeeper, you get an additional 3 for free.
If you have Sawhorse, as you're building your (paid for) fences with Delivery, your 3rd and 6th fence come from the Sawhorse.
If you have all 3 together, you could pay 2f and get this:
1, 2, 3(sawhorse, 4, 5, 6(sawhorse), 7(HK), 8(HK), 9(saw), 10(HK).
There is only way to build fences in Agricola, and that's to take a fence action (even if it's without using the space, a la Delivery). When you Fence, you get every fence benefit because there is no other way around it.
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MisterG wrote: It says you can build up to six fences using the card, without stating that you can't add additional fences due to other cards.
Now this is what I'm talking about.  Sawhorse does not give you additional fences for free. It omits the cost for certain fences when you build them. As I said, there's a valid phrasing that would allow Sawhorse to give you additional fences for free, but that's not the phrasing that was used.
Quote: I note that you still had to qualify your wording with an additional statement.
The extra statement was to make it clear that the hypothetical minor did not, in itself, give out free fences. It would basically be a more limited version of the existing "Hammer" minor.
Quote: Your dismissal of Sawhorse, in this case, would seem to also dismiss Hedge Keeper from being applied to your hypothetical, or at best limits it to reducing the cost of the card to 3Wood, true?
I'm on less certain ground here, but I interpret Hedge Keeper as taking effect after you have completed whatever building you are going to be doing. So in the case of the hypothetical minor, you would build up to 6 fences, then, because you built fences, Hedge Keeper would kick in and give you up to 3 additional free fences.
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Mike T
United States
Maryland
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I agree with Derakon and Eugene. I could restate their arguments, but I don't think I could explain it any more clearly than Derakon did. It's all about the wording on the cards.
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Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
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pijll wrote: I think this is based on a misinterpretation of the Sawhorse. It does not give you extra fences: it modifies the cost of fence building. So you can't build more than 4 fences in this case.
And because the Fence Deliveryman does not let you pay for the individual fences, but only for the entire action, it's hard to see what discount the Sawhorse could give.
I agree with Derakon: they do not combine.
I think you're confusing things, Eugene, no offense.
Fence Deliveryman let's me build 4 fences, but instead of paying Wood I'm paying Food. It doesn't say receive 4 fences, it doesn't say build only these 4 fences, it says build 4 fences.
When I build fences with Deliveryman and Sawhorse, I pay 2F for those 4 fences, but as I place them on my farm Sawhorse kicks in, allowing me to additionally place the extra 2 fences.
Ask yourself this: If someone who knew nothing about this game read these 2 cards (Deliveryman and Sawhorse), would they think they combine? I would say yes.
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Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Den Haag
Altijd zin in een spelletje!
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I have played Wood Carver (1 wood discount on rooms, improvements, etc.). This means that the Baking Tray that's in my hand is now free.
Can I use the Starting Player action space, play a minor from my hand for its normal cost, and then also play the Baking Tray because it is free?
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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No, because SP specifically only allows you to play one Minor. Fence Deliveryman is not specifically only allowing you to build four fences.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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btizo wrote:
If you have all 3 together, you could pay 2f and get this:
1, 2, 3(sawhorse, 4, 5, 6(sawhorse), 7(HK), 8(HK), 9(saw), 10(HK).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that splitting the HK bonus has already been specifically outlawed by Hanno in another thread. The #9 fence would have to be HK, which is (also according to what Eugene has put into the Compendium) always tacked on at the conclusion of any other fencing.
That part of derakon's, Eugene's and Mike's argumentation I agree with.
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Mike T
United States
Maryland
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Take Eugene's example and bring it a bit closer:
What about Wood Carver + Fence Deliveryman? Are you guys arguing that you could build 5 fences when your delivery comes in?
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James Woodall
United States
Houston
Texas
Look like a guy with a plan?
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Someone needs to pay Chad Jensen to re-write the cards and rules. Problem solved.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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smcmike wrote: Take Eugene's example and bring it a bit closer:
What about Wood Carver + Fence Deliveryman? Are you guys arguing that you could build 5 fences when your delivery comes in?
No, because there's no cost in wood to apply the Carver to.
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Geoff Burkman
United States
Kettering
Ohio
"Punk is not dead" by daughter, Emily
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jwoodall wrote: Someone needs to pay Chad Jensen to re-write the cards and rules. Problem solved.
For that matter, they could pay ME to re-write the cards and rules. I'm more highly motivated and probably would work cheaper. 
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Mike T
United States
Maryland
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MisterG wrote: smcmike wrote: Take Eugene's example and bring it a bit closer:
What about Wood Carver + Fence Deliveryman? Are you guys arguing that you could build 5 fences when your delivery comes in? No, because there's no cost in wood to apply the Carver to.
Now apply this same logic to Sawhorse, which deals with costs, just as Wood Carver does.
For another example: For another example: Imagine you have Sawhorse and Woodcarver. Now you play the Stable minor (for free, with Woodcarver). You get to build one stable, not two.
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Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
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MisterG wrote: btizo wrote:
If you have all 3 together, you could pay 2f and get this:
1, 2, 3(sawhorse, 4, 5, 6(sawhorse), 7(HK), 8(HK), 9(saw), 10(HK).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that splitting the HK bonus has already been specifically outlawed by Hanno in another thread. The #9 fence would have to be HK, which is (also according to what Eugene has put into the Compendium) always tacked on at the conclusion of any other fencing. That part of derakon's, Eugene's and Mike's argumentation I agree with.
Agricola Compendium v. 9.0 - Hedge Keeper wrote: The free fences from the Hedge Keeper are built in the same fence building action as all other fences, but in an order of your choosing. However, you may not use the Hedge Keeper for the first fence you build in a turn.
If I can do this with Hedge Keeper and Fence Deliveryman, why not Sawhorse and Deliveryman?
Agricola Compendium v. 9.0 - Sawhorse wrote: If you build free fences in another way (e.g. with the Hedge Keeper E175) you may not save the free fences from the Sawhorse for another turn. Free fences from the Sawhorse are built before the free fences from the Hedge Keeper.
But here's a contradiction, here. Why must the Hedge Keeper go after the Sawhorse, here, but not during a normal action? I don't understand why the cards can't combine to build fences in any order that you choose.
Can we just ask Hanno or Uwe? As much as I think I'm right, I want a correct answer more, even if it goes against my opinion.
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