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Subject: Flute of the Outer Gods . Hmm rss

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Andreas Vecstric
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The unique item "Flute of the Outer Gods" is confusing me a bit. This is the wording on the card:
Quote:
Any phase: Lose 3 Sanity and 3 Stamina and discard Flute of the Outer Gods before making a Combat check to defeat all monsters in your current area. This does not affect Ancient Ones.

My interpretations:
"Any phase" means it does not apply only to combat. This means it's not a "combat"-item (and also there are no hands on the cards) so when using this card the investigator does not really enter a "real combat".

"Combat check" is a special skill check like any other special skill check (Evade check, Spell check) and does NOT imply that "real combat" is occuring at the moment. But one CAN apply ones weapons since it is a combat check. Horror check is NOT needed since it's not "real combat". The hands-rule still apply since the rulebook mentions this:
Quote:
There is a limitation on the number of weapons and spells an investigator may use at once. This limitation is represented by the 'hand' icons printed in the lower-left corner of each weapon and spell card.

"to defeat all monsters" does NOT mean that the Overwhelming ability of monsters apply since the rules say this:
Quote:
Overwhelming X: Any investigator that defeats this monster in combat still loses X Stamina. This ability doesn't apply when the investigator fails his Combat check against the monster.
Note the words "in combat".

No monster trophies will be awarded since the monsters weren't defeated in combat but they are instead returned to the cup.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

(And notice how well I avoided the 3stamina/sanity-cost debate in this post since I think it's obvious what the designer really meant )
 
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brian
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"Any Phase" does mean combat. But Combat can occur in Phase 2, 3, or 4. So you cannot use this during Upkeep or the Mythos phase or whenever you want.

That is about the only think I am sure about on this card.
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Rauli Kettunen
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I play Flute that you do get the trophies. Also, that you need to enter combat, i.e. make a horror check before using flute. If Flute were treated as return to cup item, then it wouldn't affect Spawns and not getting trophies after blowing off 3/3 is nasty.
 
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Andreas Vecstric
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"Any phase:" COULD mean combat but it doesn't mean ONLY combat right?

I want to use this item when moving to a location with a horde of monster and blow my Flute before combat to scare away all the monsters back to the monster cup. Is this behavior contradicted in the rules somehow?

(I think the "scare the monsters away" bit fits well thematically with the flute. Even monsters are scared of the GOOs and the sounds they make. And loosing 3 sanity fits in with it also. Stamina perhaps is a bit odd)
 
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Rauli Kettunen
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Ezel wrote:
And loosing 3 sanity fits in with it also. Stamina perhaps is a bit odd)


Come on, the stamina part is easy, you gotta blow that flute hard laugh !
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John Anderson
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I'm no authority on the subject, but here's how I would play it:

1) Has to be used just before a combat check, which means it's during combat. Most likely this will be during your movement phase and you move into a space with a lot of monsters, but it would be during encounters if a monster appears, etc.

2) Since it's just before a combat check, this would mean you have to pass a horror check on one of the monsters (presumably you would pick the easiest one) since you have to do a horror check before being able to do the combat check.

3) I would treat each monster as if you'd defeated it in combat individually. Meaning if they had overwhelming, you'd take the loss. Also that would mean you get all the monster trophies, since you get a trophy when you defeat a monster, and the card specifically says it's used to "defeat all monsters" in the area. Unless they're special like the Mi Go and you get an item instead of the trophy.

4) The 3 stamina and 3 sanity is listed as a loss, so special abilities (like the gangster) I would apply. Also if monsters were overwhelming, I would treat each of them as an individual loss that the gangster could deduct from (or anything else that prevents stamina loss).

That's not official, just how I would interpret it based on the wording you posted. I think I've had this card but never used it - the 3 stamina and 3 sanity is just too much to make it worthwhile I've thought.
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Andreas Vecstric
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puck71 wrote:
I think I've had this card but never used it - the 3 stamina and 3 sanity is just too much to make it worthwhile I've thought.
Well I had a monster surge with one single gate open and no monsters on the board. Meaning ALL the surge-monsters came out in a single spot. It was very useful then I tell you!
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Tim Thorp
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Quote:
(And notice how well I avoided the 3stamina/sanity-cost debate in this post since I think it's obvious what the designer really meant )


I'm more impressed with the fact that you didn't bring up how this card works with The Terrible Experiment rumor card.
 
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John Anderson
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berserkley wrote:
Quote:
(And notice how well I avoided the 3stamina/sanity-cost debate in this post since I think it's obvious what the designer really meant )


I'm more impressed with the fact that you didn't bring up how this card works with The Terrible Experiment rumor card.
I thought of it, but the Terrible Experiment says the monsters aren't on the board, and I think it's fairly clear that the Flute only affects monsters on the board. I'll say it again, never has a card been more aptly named than the Terrible Experiment. shake
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Rauli Kettunen
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puck71 wrote:
berserkley wrote:
Quote:
(And notice how well I avoided the 3stamina/sanity-cost debate in this post since I think it's obvious what the designer really meant )


I'm more impressed with the fact that you didn't bring up how this card works with The Terrible Experiment rumor card.
I thought of it, but the Terrible Experiment says the monsters aren't on the board, and I think it's fairly clear that the Flute only affects monsters on the board. I'll say it again, never has a card been more aptly named than the Terrible Experiment. shake


Flute vs Terrible Experiment has been an issue thrown back and forth. Heck, even Mr. "Steady as a rock" ColtsFan76 changed his mind on it at least once during this year.
 
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"Take That Token And I'll Ram These Dice Right Up Your Nostrils"
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We play this different to everyone else!

After much debating we ruled that you can use the flute in any phase (as it says) before the start of a combat (and it's horror check). You take the hits and it defeats all monsters in your current area (as in street area AND locations), which you claim as trophies as normal.

We see it as a kind of wholesale deal for monster fighting- you take a fixed (and quite steep) amount of damage for multiple monster kills (if you get a good moment to use it).

This seemed the only way to justify the outrageous $ cost and heavy payment in life you need to actually use it, not to mention the need for an investigator that can actually take the loss without dying (investigators like McGlen and Walters need not apply with their maximum sanity/stamina of 3) AND plenty of monsters in the same area (which doesn't always come up when you want).

Theme-wise this works well, as the Flute is meant to sound like the call of a GOO- this would scare half the monsters to death and blow the brains out of the ears of everything else! That's why the cost is 3 sanity AND 3 stamina, and you knew it was only the flute! goo
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Rauli Kettunen
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Narlgoth wrote:
We play this different to everyone else!

After much debating we ruled that you can use the flute in any phase (as it says) before the start of a combat (and it's horror check).


So you could use the Flute and keep moving?

Quote:
You take the hits and it defeats all monsters in your current area (as in street area AND locations), which you claim as trophies as normal.


Wow, you let the Flute blow a whole neighborhood surprise ? I'd agree that the terminology between space/area/etc. is a bit mixed, but still, a neighborhood?
 
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Tim Thorp
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I like the way you think, Narlgoth! This is pretty close to the way I'm going to play it. And, I'm using the phobia/injury cards from Arkham Horror. Normally, if your sanity/stamina goes to zero, your character is immediately out of the game, making it impossible to use the Flute. With the phobia/injury cards, if the sanity/stamina loss would take you to zero, you can take a p/i to prevent the loss. So, even if the loss takes you to zero, you can stay in the game and use the Flute! (This is, of course, not official. When I read an official ruling, then I'll play it that way.)
 
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Budgie Meeple
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Quote:
1) Has to be used just before a combat check, which means it's during combat. Most likely this will be during your movement phase and you move into a space with a lot of monsters, but it would be during encounters if a monster appears, etc.

2) Since it's just before a combat check, this would mean you have to pass a horror check on one of the monsters (presumably you would pick the easiest one) since you have to do a horror check before being able to do the combat check.

3) I would treat each monster as if you'd defeated it in combat individually. Meaning if they had overwhelming, you'd take the loss. Also that would mean you get all the monster trophies, since you get a trophy when you defeat a monster, and the card specifically says it's used to "defeat all monsters" in the area. Unless they're special like the Mi Go and you get an item instead of the trophy.

4) The 3 stamina and 3 sanity is listed as a loss, so special abilities (like the gangster) I would apply. Also if monsters were overwhelming, I would treat each of them as an individual loss that the gangster could deduct from (or anything else that prevents stamina loss).


This is how we've always played it. Before a combat check doesn't mean "before a horror check", so you would have to make one horror check to start with. One exception is the "Terrible Experiment" rumor. You cannot use it on the monsters on the card as they are not actually in your location, however if you fail and the monsters come into play it could be used. surprise shake wow
 
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brian
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meeplepeople wrote:
Quote:
1) Has to be used just before a combat check, which means it's during combat. Most likely this will be during your movement phase and you move into a space with a lot of monsters, but it would be during encounters if a monster appears, etc.

2) Since it's just before a combat check, this would mean you have to pass a horror check on one of the monsters (presumably you would pick the easiest one) since you have to do a horror check before being able to do the combat check.

3) I would treat each monster as if you'd defeated it in combat individually. Meaning if they had overwhelming, you'd take the loss. Also that would mean you get all the monster trophies, since you get a trophy when you defeat a monster, and the card specifically says it's used to "defeat all monsters" in the area. Unless they're special like the Mi Go and you get an item instead of the trophy.

4) The 3 stamina and 3 sanity is listed as a loss, so special abilities (like the gangster) I would apply. Also if monsters were overwhelming, I would treat each of them as an individual loss that the gangster could deduct from (or anything else that prevents stamina loss).


This is how we've always played it. Before a combat check doesn't mean "before a horror check", so you would have to make one horror check to start with. One exception is the "Terrible Experiment" rumor. You cannot use it on the monsters on the card as they are not actually in your location, however if you fail and the monsters come into play it could be used. surprise shake wow

But the question then is which Horror check do you use? Presumably, if you are using this card, then there are mutliple monsters in that location so there are multiple Horror checks. How do you select? Randomly, the highest, the lowest, whichever you want, all of them?

To follow suit with other combat, you should be able to select which mionster to engage. And most likely, you are going to check the weakest one, or alternately, the one that does the least damage (so you can survive and still cast the spell). At that point, what's the difference? Why even roll for Horror?

The card clearly say "comabt" but a few of us feel the card was a misprint. The intent of the card appears to be in lieu of any actual battle and engaging any particular monster. So I think it was an oversight by Kevin with his wording. But we can't get a confirmation one way or the other.
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Ken
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
But the question then is which Horror check do you use?


Why would this be an issue? The investigator chooses the sequence of combat resolutions, so you could pick the one you're going to start a fight with, do the horror check, and then kick the flute in, right? You'd obviously pick the most advantageous one for you.

Quote:
Why even roll for Horror?


Because if it's a group of particularly nasty monsters, you may end up without enough sanity to use the flute if you roll poorly. And after that, using the flute may be enough to send you to the asylum 'cuz you've gone made.

We've always played it this way:

1. Investigator ends up in an area with one or more monsters somehow (movement, event, encounter).
2. Investigator initiates combat against one monster.
3. Investigator does horror check against chosen monster.
4. If the investigator has sufficient stamina/sanity left, use the flute (and maybe end up at the hospital or asylum).
5. Monsters all die, ignoring Overwhelming ability since no actual combat check has occurred.
6. Player keeps monsters as trophies because, per the card, they've been "defeated" and not just removed like some other items, events, effects.
 
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brian
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perfalbion wrote:
Because if it's a group of particularly nasty monsters,

That's my point. So I see a group of particularly nasty monsters hanging around. Instead of being afraid of all those monstrous things, I decide to just be frightened by the average Cultist hanging out in the middle of the group. Oops. I am not frightened by him so no horror check. Since he doesn't scare me, neither does anything else. Let's cast the spell.

Look, this thing has been debated ad nauseum. I am not interested in continuing it. As I sadi in thebeginning, this card has some issues. I am not the only one of that opinion. And it should be clarified. If the designer really intended for you to make {i}one{/i] horror check before casting it, then so be it.
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Ken
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
That's my point. So I see a group of particularly nasty monsters hanging around. Instead of being afraid of all those monstrous things, I decide to just be frightened by the average Cultist hanging out in the middle of the group. Oops. I am not frightened by him so no horror check. Since he doesn't scare me, neither does anything else. Let's cast the spell.


I don't disagree with the point, but don't players routinely "game the system" along these lines? If you have a choice of fighting a Mi-go or a Flying Polyp first, don't you go after the Mi-go in the hopes of picking up a useful item that would help you kill the Polyp? There are spells and items that cause monsters to die without even being in the same area as them, so this doesn't strike me as "abusive" because you do have to perform the horror check (and that might not be at zero sanity loss) and then there's a very stiff price to pay for the flute.

Personally, I don't see the need for the clarification because the card is fairly clear. It's just horribly powerful with a correspondingly high price to pay to use it.
 
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Sithrak - The god who hates you unconditionally
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I think this card needs a clear official ruling, it has already led to some discussions among our group, even though I think we only ever used it once, but I'm not even sure about that (partially because nobody was sure what it actually DOES), is the "area" one street or an entire neighborhood? Do you have to engage in battle to use it? Do you get to keep monster trophies (Or draw items if there are any Mi-Gos there)? Those are just a few questions, add to that things like "Do I have to make a horror check and if yes, how do I decide what monster to check?" and whatever else has been asked here and you get an incredibly ambivalent card :/
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John Anderson
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perfalbion wrote:
5. Monsters all die, ignoring Overwhelming ability since no actual combat check has occurred.
This is an example of why an official flute rule would be beneficial. I agree with the rest of your list except this. I consider "defeating a monster" to be synonymous with "passing a combat check against a monster" so since the flute defeats all monsters (in the area) I take that to mean passes a combat check against all monsters (in the area). And since the trigger for Overwhelming is passing a combat check, it would apply.

However, that could be totally wrong, and passing a combat check could really just be one of multiple ways to "defeat a monster." Are there any other ways people can think of that you can defeat an overwhelming monster without taking the Overwhelming damage? If there are, then my definition is most likely wrong, and I would lean toward agreeing with your interpretation, but if not I would tend not to make the flute the one single exception to the rule.

And cards like Feds Raid Arkham wouldn't count - I'm looking for ways your investigator defeats them on his/her own (with items/spells, etc. that are in his/her possession).
 
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Dan Hoang
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I'm currently at work, so I don't have access to the rule book to cite the specific page, but I believe that combat/sneak checks in Arkham are actually done when you try and leave a zone that is occupied by monsters, not when you enter it.

So, you could walk into a zone filled with them and be "fine" until you tried to get out.

After my group discovered this technicality, the Flute ceased to give us any difficulties, as you could use it during the phase that you moved into the area.

And we just went with the house decision of the person using the flute keeping the monsters as trophies, as it was more fun for us.

P.S. This is my first post here at BGG, so . . . be gentle please.
 
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John Anderson
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The rulebook is worded very poorly regarding when combat happens. It sounds like it only happens when you try to leave a space, but it does also happen if you end your movement on a space with monster(s). Thus if a monster is on a gate location, you end your movement there, fight (or evade) the monster, then during the Arkham Encounter phase you get sucked into the gate.

I'm not sure where exactly that's clarified (Dunwich FAQ or online FAQ possibly). I don't think it matters much for the flute though - the same questions exist no matter when you actually start the combat.
 
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Ken Newell
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This question just came up in our game. Now I am still trying to learn the game so not much of an "expert" on the issue, but my thoughts on the game are based on the rules as I understand them and the "theme".

We ruled that because it does not specify the word "location" but instead states "area", then it can be used in the streets and works in all of the "locations" for that "area" (all locations and streets of the same colour).

Kind of like a "Pied Piper" effect. It draws all the monsters out and to their deaths.

We also felt that if it was blown in a street or location with NO monsters at that specific location, then no horror check needs to be made as there are no monsters there to possibly scare the blower. However, if it was blown in a location or street where there were monsters, then the highest monster (most difficult Will check) is the one that needs to be made before blowing. This being that the biggest is the leader and scares the most crap out of you prior to blowing. You wouldn't really wait around to see the rest before blowing, you would do it right after seeing the first one.

So that was how we dealt with the flute. Strictly looking at it thematically.

Oh yes, and the blower gets to keep the monster trophies.

Just my two bits...
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Rauli Kettunen
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LFITQ wrote:
We ruled that because it does not specify the word "location" but instead states "area", then it can be used in the streets and works in all of the "locations" for that "area" (all locations and streets of the same colour).


Thing is, if you include the street + the locations with the same color, you allowing the Flute to blow a whole neighborhood. While I agree that terms "area" and "space" are a bit ambivalent occasionally, terms "location" and "neighborhood" are clearly defined in the rules (p. 21 for neighborhood). I don't see how one would read the Flute as affecting a whole neighborhood.
 
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Ken Newell
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I would be curious to see how FFG (or rather JR as he hosts it) rules on this as it can make a difference on a score for the Summer League.

But because of the high cost for casting (from just the base game it does seem to be the most costly item out there), and the "Pied Piper" similarity that I have adopted for theme purposes (he didn't have to go into each house to get the kids to come outside), is why I still go with the whole neighborhood as "area", and not just "location".

But it is the ambivalence in the wording that is creating the confusion. They suddenly throw in a word that has no definition (where other words are clearly defined that could have been used instead), which affects the interpretation of the item.
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