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Subject: Each expansion will be a full game! rss

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Raviv Nagel
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I wrote it on http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/369808,
but the thread seems to be dead.

Ayway, on the latest podcast from The Dice Tower (#138) there's an interview with Jay from RGG, and he says that each expansion to Dominion will be a complete game incuding 25 kingdom cards, victory point cards and coin cards.
You can download the podcast from http://www.funagain.com/control/viewblog?contentBlogId=TDT
The interview starts around 39:07, and the part about Dominion expansions around 48:05.

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Breno K.
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raviv wrote:
Ayway, on the latest podcast from The Dice Tower (#138) there's an interview with Jay from RGG, and he says that each expansion to Dominion will be a complete game incuding 25 kingdom cards, victory point cards and coin cards.


Awesome, customers will be forced to buy stuff they already have if they want new kingdom cards!
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Henri Harju
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Awesome! Now I have a good reason NOT to buy it! Thanks a bunch RGG!
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Jens www.spielefreun.de
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Overtext is really cool. The best 100 GG I've ever spent.
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Well. I'm actually bored with overtext. Why did I give all that GG away?
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Well, maybe this time the silver coins are silver and the copper coins red.
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brian
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So presumably, we need to purchase 500 cards only to be able to use 250 of them. And how is this not like a collectible card game?

I would much rather see 2 expansions be produced:
1) One set contains the new decks and placeholder cards for a quantity of 275 (or round up to whatever magic number to round out sheets) and theoretically costs half as much as the base game.

2) A second set that contains "the guts" of the game. That would be the 215 cards (again rounding up if need be) to include all monies, all victory points, curses, and the Trash card, along with their placeholders. Also half the cost of the base game.

This way, we can buy just what we want without having to throw our money away on cards we don't need. And for those that don't want to buy the basic game with its 25 decks, can purchase just the guts whenever they need to.

I plan to let know Jay that his solution is not an option for me at this time. Given the current economy, I will have to skip buying this expansion if that is how he plans to package it.

I realize some will be die-hard fans and will purchase an expansion no matter what. I am curious to see actual numbers on what people want:

Poll
Given Rio Grande's announcement to make each Dominion expansion a complete game, what is your attitude towards purchasing new expansions?
I will purchase any expansion even if it includes cards I already own, no questions asked
I will purchase the expansions but would prefer they change this policy to be more cost effective for the consumer
I might purchase some of the expansions but would be more selective
I will not purchase the expanions if it includes cards I already own
Undecided
      733 answers
Poll created by ColtsFan76
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John Bandettini
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That one not so much
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So they have invented the non-collectable card game that costs as much as a collectable one. Nice marketing guys.
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John Earles
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raviv wrote:
I wrote it on http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/369808,
but the thread seems to be dead.

Ayway, on the latest podcast from The Dice Tower (#138) there's an interview with Jay from RGG, and he says that each expansion to Dominion will be a complete game incuding 25 kingdom cards, victory point cards and coin cards.
You can download the podcast from http://www.funagain.com/control/viewblog?contentBlogId=TDT
The interview starts around 39:07, and the part about Dominion expansions around 48:05.



I simply cannot believe Jay would make this business decision. I thought Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm was bad - 30 "real" cards and 18 blanks, but this would be much worse.

I will not be buying a bunch of cards I already have just to get new Kingdom cards. It makes no sense... shake
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John Bandettini
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That one not so much
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jearles wrote:


I simply cannot believe Jay would make this business decision. I thought Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm was bad - 30 "real" cards and 18 blanks, but this would be much worse.

I will not be buying a bunch of cards I already have just to get new Kingdom cards. It makes no sense... :shake:


I totally agree. If the new cards are available seperately I might well buy at least one expansion. If each is a full game the only place I am likely to play with them is on BSW.
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Branko K.
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VERY bad business decision.

Or a very good one, but one that disrepects the fans of the game. who will now have to pay more for stuff they don't really need.

And as I recall, Donald said that he already has 5 or 6 expansions designed and tested. So what, now we will have to buy 5-6 full priced games just for the new Kingdom cards?

Edit: I hope H&G will be smart enough NOT to do this and publish the expansions as expansions. I'd rather buy that and paste-up the english text then buy fullgame-priced overproduced "expansions".
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Olav Müller
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Those poor trees! cry
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Branko K.
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Exact quote:

"At least at this point we plan that each expansion will be, you know, a full game. So it will have 25 new Kingdom cards, plus the complete set of Treasure cards, Victory cards and so on. We spent a lot of time trying to decide how to handle this best. We will still call it an expansion, and the reason for that is it will not have some of the basic Kingdom cards in it, so a new player would have a difficult time picking it up. But certainly, someone who has played Dominion would find it interesting to play with just the cards from the expansion. Although of course it's completely compatible with the basic game and you can mix-and-match and play everything together. We know that [..] the decreased cost of NOT having the entire set would be minor, and that people who don't sleeve would find the most wear and tear on the cards that get the most use, which are the Treasure cards and the Victory cards, so that was a good way to get those people extra cards that they need."
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Raviv Nagel
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Stop whining.

When buying a game such as Dominion, or its upcoming expansions, a very (very) small percentage of the price is to pay for the cards themselves.
You pay for the time dedicated by people to make the game: designers, developers, artists, play testers, etc'.
The expansion does not cost more just because you get more cards for which the graphics is already done.
Think of it this way: If you buy an expansion of 25 sets of kingdom cards, you get, as a bonus, new sets of coin cards and victory cards, to replace the old ones, since they are the ones used the most, and are probably worn out from all the shuffling.

Does it sound better now ?

EDIT :
I didn't mean to offend anyone with the "Stop whining". I was just surprised at the number of negative responses here.
I think it's good. That way, each member of my group can buy a copy of a different set and have a full game for himself. When we meet, we can combine the sets to make interesting games.
Sorry if I offended anyone (I just noticed someone "un-thumbed" my original post (number of thumbs went down), so I realised I must have annoyed someone)
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Branko K.
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You don't "get it as a bonus". You pay for it.

Now they can freely slap a full-game price on it. Before it wouldn't fly so well.
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brian
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baba44713 wrote:
Exact quote:

"At least at this point we plan that each expansion will be, you know, a full game. So it will have 25 new Kingdom cards, plus the complete set of Treasure cards, Victory cards and so on. We spent a lot of time trying to decide how to handle this best. We will still call it an expansion, and the reason for that is it will not have some of the basic Kingdom cards in it, so a new player would have a difficult time picking it up. But certainly, someone who has played Dominion would find it interesting to play with just the cards from the expansion. Although of course it's completely compatible with the basic game and you can mix-and-match and play everything together. We know that [..] the decreased cost of NOT having the entire set would be minor, and that people who don't sleeve would find the most wear and tear on the cards that get the most use, which are the Treasure cards and the Victory cards, so that was a good way to get those people extra cards that they need."

I can see the reasoning behind Jay's statement. But I still think the same thing can be offered by splitting out the packages.

So for those of us who did sleeve (and this is the only game I have ever sleeved), we now have the added costs of sleeves (which had to be imported from Korea) and replacement cards I don't need.
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Branko K.
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raviv wrote:
Stop whining.


Make me.

Quote:
When buying a game such as Dominion, or its upcoming expansions, a very (very) small percentage of the price is to pay for the cards themselves.
You pay for the time dedicated by people to make the game: designers, developers, artists, play testers, etc'.


Yes, and that's why I think that the rather high price tag on the base game is completely reasonable, you are not paying "just" for the 500 cards, you are paying for the nice extensible game system.

However, forcing the Dominion fans buy five or six FULL games seems like milking the fans for all it's worth. I like Dominion, but I don't like it THAT much to throw my money down the drain because of it. This is the EXACT reason why I never wanted to involve myself with a CCG.

I'll rather quit while I'm ahead.
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Make the next printing of Dominion a two box set, one with Money/VP/Curse cards and one with the base Kingdom cards.

Also sell these as individual boxes and sell the expansions as kingdom cards only.

That way people can go and buy a new Money/VP cards or new Base game cards and expansions as they wear out.



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Olav Müller
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I don't get it.

Weren't we always told, that cards are very expansive to produce?

Weren't we always told, that the base game only had such a big box in order to include all those nifty expansions-to-come?

I still hope Hans im Glück (the German publisher) doesn't jump on this ugly train as well. Maybe they can do something about this for the German customers at least.
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Mik Svellov
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Rio Grande Games wrote:
...people who don't sleeve would find the most wear and tear on the cards that get the most use, which are the Treasure cards and the Victory cards, so that was a good way to get those people extra cards that they need...


Of course, the 252 original Kingdoms cards plus the 30 Curse cards will still have some wear and tear.
yuk
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brian
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baba44713 wrote:
This is the EXACT reason why I never wanted to involve myself with a CCG.

I'll rather quit while I'm ahead.

That's pretty much my position as well. I loved playing CCG's in college but I don't want to pay for it now. When I wanted to get into a card game recently, I had a couple of options: mostly from FFG's new LCG format and Dominion.

While the LCG had potential and was about themes I actually like, you were still in the same boat that if you wanted a really good deck, you needed 3 copies of everything to get 3 copies of the limited cards. So buy an extra 80 cards just to throw away 60 of them in the expansions.

I thought Dominion would be different. Little better ratio than the LCG but not what I expected to get into. At least with the LCG, I can buy a single expansion, get new cards, and not be forced to buy anything unwanted.

So I too feel I am better off stopping at this point.
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Daric Morris
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Ok so who is so disgusted with this announcement that they are willing to sell me their original Dominion game extra cheap?
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John Earles
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raviv wrote:
Think of it this way: If you buy an expansion of 25 sets of kingdom cards, you get, as a bonus, new sets of coin cards and victory cards, to replace the old ones, since they are the ones used the most, and are probably worn out from all the shuffling.

Does it sound better now ?


No it doesn't... is anyone who loves this game really only going to buy 1 expansion? So okay, I get the first one. Replacement cards... Yay! Next expansion, umm... more replacements. Next expansion, MORE replacements. Next expansion... I'm drowning in replacements here!

Even if didn't mind ONE extra set of VP and Treasure, I certainly don't need 6 (or however many expansions are in the works).

The only thing this decision will do (unless the price point is very low) is make people more choosy about which expansions they will purchase.
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Branko K.
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
I can see the reasoning behind Jay's statement.


I don't see it as "reasoning". I see it as an excuse to charge full price.

Quote:
No it doesn't... is anyone who loves this game really only going to buy 1 expansion? So okay, I get the first one. Replacement cards... Yay! Next expansion, umm... more replacements. Next expansion, MORE replacements. Next expansion... I'm drowning in replacements here!


And yes, what I minded is Jay saying that "each expansion will be a full game". Not "the next one will be a full game and we'll go from there".. but "each". I would perhaps justify buying the next expansion if I knew I would later on get to expand my game with a more humanely priced expansions, but no way in hell am I spending 40$ (plus 40$ shipping, plus customs) each time I want some new Kingdom cards. I'll rather buy a completely new game for that money.

And it's not like they are slapping in a few "bonus" cards. For every card you wanted you'll get one more you don't need. What's worse, it will not only come with the price of a full game, it will come in a unnecessarily heavy and big box which means higher shipping costs and inevitable customs fee (everything bigger then a Carc expansion box raises an alarm at customs in my country; you could smuggle diamonds dunked in cocaine if you put it in a small box, but put a deck of cards in a big box it immediately raises eyebrows shake ).

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Michael Kandrac
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"Booster packs" of a single set of action cards would probably retail in the $10-$15 range, so a $50 complete game with 25 sets of action cards would be a bargain. I paid over 20 bucks for the Saint Petersburg expansion for very little really - better to buy the future reprint that has those few bits and what, 13 cards?

Gg
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Timothy Rose
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My question about all this is, really, the timing...

If, for example, there's going to be three or four expansions a year, then, guess what, you've just become a CCG with worthless cards in every set.

On the other hand... if this is only going to be approximately a "once-a-year" thing, then yes, I'll likely buy the full set each time. My previous "duplicate" cards will be that worn, and the cost won't be nearly the hit to my game budget that quarterly purchases of the same amount would be.

Twice a year? I'd have to think about....



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Scott Smith
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Why not have 2 SKUs for the expansion? One for the "full game" version. Another for just the kingdom cards. Seems to address their concerns while also not offending original customers either.

Although in a business that has trouble delivering one SKU on time, this is probably a logistic impossibility.

baba44713 wrote:
Exact quote:

"At least at this point we plan that each expansion will be, you know, a full game. So it will have 25 new Kingdom cards, plus the complete set of Treasure cards, Victory cards and so on. We spent a lot of time trying to decide how to handle this best. We will still call it an expansion, and the reason for that is it will not have some of the basic Kingdom cards in it, so a new player would have a difficult time picking it up. But certainly, someone who has played Dominion would find it interesting to play with just the cards from the expansion. Although of course it's completely compatible with the basic game and you can mix-and-match and play everything together. We know that [..] the decreased cost of NOT having the entire set would be minor, and that people who don't sleeve would find the most wear and tear on the cards that get the most use, which are the Treasure cards and the Victory cards, so that was a good way to get those people extra cards that they need."
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