Roy Bondy
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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As much as I love boardgames (which as a lot btw) I suck at them. Of the countless times I've played Catan, Power Grid, Lowenherz, even Monopoly, I have yet to win. Not even once, I swear. Don't get me wrong, I definitely know winning isn't everything. I play boardgames because they're fun and a great way to spend time with friends. Winning is just a perk. That's not to say I wouldn't like to win though. A lifetime losing streak isn't the greatest. But why do I lose? I have no strategy. Ain't got no board game! (haha?)
Anyways, here's where my little thesis comes in. On some level, every boardgame that isn't Candyland or Life has something in common, STRATEGY! If a game has no strategy, it's just a toy and toys are not what bring us together. I digress. Depending on the level of random chance a game has, we are required to form an offense and balance it with our defense. We have to anticipate the moves of others and act accordingly. Chess is the epitome of strategy. Checkers, less so. Tic Tac Toe is crap. Connect Four? I don't know if you've heard but Connect Four has been solved, which means that with perfect play, a computer will beat you every time if it starts and draw you everytime if you start (same as in Tic Tac Toe except not crap). Here's my point! Yeah, the kids on the box are like eight years old but we could all stand to learn something from Connect Four. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to win or draw everytime you faced a worthy adversary. It really does require you to think ahead and be perceptive(which I'm not, at all). It's like training! Connect four is an abstract strategy game but really, most good games are just abstract strategy games with cool frills and a storyline. Connect Four has been done an injustice. It's dismissed as too simple, too easy and a game for kids. Clearly it's no chess but Connect Four is not as easy as it looks, especially if you're like me and you seem to repel victory points. Just give it a chance. At least try to appreciate what I'm saying here,even if you are all above that level of gaming,
As for me, I'm working on my strategy. I play abstract strategy games, like chess, as my own sort of training regimen so that come next boardgame night, maybe I can win, who knows. I did win my first game of Ticket to Ride fyi. Enough babbling, I hope you enjoyed my thoughts. Please leave comments and stuff!
Roy
Here's a link to a Milton Bradley version of online Connect Four:
http://host.exemplum.com/hasbro/connectfour/connectfour.htm
They say the best defense is a good offense. For Connect Four, I say the best offense is a good defense. Have fun. Keep it clean!
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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This out be on the page for Connect Four.
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Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
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BoardGameBondy wrote: I bet you'd be hard-pressed to win or draw everytime you faced a worthy adversary. Forget playing a computer, when my niece was about 12 she could stomp me repeatedly.
BoardGameBondy wrote: Connect Four has been done an injustice. It's dismissed as too simple, too easy and a game for kids. ...Connect Four is not as easy as it looks ... I recognized that she had skill in a thought process that I did not share. I knew I was being set up and still couldn't spot it.
BoardGameBondy wrote: Just give it a chance. If that is your primary message, I'll go ahead and give it a thumb. But your subject line seemed connected to the BGG rating system. To counter that I was just going to point out that the rating is a much a pleasure meter as it is a quality meter. I just don't experience the competion thrill in Connect Four ... even if I know there is a competition potential.
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Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
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Here's two recommendations for you to try. I can't set anything up even one move ahead in these, either. Even so, they have something else that makes me wish I could.
Focus
Clans
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Steven Backues
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
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TVis wrote: I just don't experience the competion thrill in Connect Four ... even if I know there is a competition potential.
Why is that, do you think?
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Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
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Elendil wrote: TVis wrote: I just don't experience the competion thrill in Connect Four ... even if I know there is a competition potential.
Why is that, do you think?
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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BoardGameBondy wrote: I bet you'd be hard-pressed to win or draw everytime you faced a worthy adversary.
This is very, very, very untrue. Especially for BGG abstract fans
Connect Four is fairly simplistic on a ply level. When my kids (7 and 10) play against the computer, they don't play a game. They play until they lose to it.
We no longer play each other, as it is absurd to wait for a win. Just like Tic Tac Toe.
My daughter has gone 18 games with no losses. My son, 22. After I hit 40 in a row, I stopped.
The game is way too simplistic to provide strategy.
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Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
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I agree with you, Roy. Many abstract strategy games are underrated, IMO. Checkers, for example. You can dedicate a lifetime to becoming a top-notch checkers player. Nine Men's Morris is another "solved" game that can provide intelligent adults with years of challenge.
But in my view, there are other good reasons to play games too. As I say on my BGG profile page:
Quote: To me, there are four main things one can get out of playing games:
1. plan and execute strategy or solve puzzles--exercise the mind;
2. interact with people--socialize, compete, trade, negotiate, etc.;
3. gamble or make plays for a tactical edge--try to beat the odds;
4. enjoy the theme/narrative--participate in an imaginary world.
And as I go on to say:
Quote: I'm not much of a planner, and social interaction often feels too much like work in my leisure time; so my focus tends to be on 3 and 4 above.
To each his own.
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Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
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TVis wrote: Elendil wrote: TVis wrote: I just don't experience the competion thrill in Connect Four ... even if I know there is a competition potential.
Why is that, do you think? The honest answer in part is that I feel so lost. I give up; I'm just placing pieces and hoping.
I can relate to that. That's how I am in so many games . . .
One of the breakthrough pleasures in my gaming career was when I discovered chess books back in high school. Studying annotated games taught me how to understand a game I'd never have grasped just by trial and error.
Some people hate books on game strategy/tactics. Some even consider it cheating to ever refer to such a book. But I find I enjoy a game a lot more when I get what it's about and how it works--and it's often very hard for me to "get" a game just by playing at it till something clicks.
I usually learn best by reading about something, then being walked through some exercises.
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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Geosphere wrote: We no longer play each other, as it is absurd to wait for a win. Just like Tic Tac Toe.
Paul, what are you saying? In connect 4, there is a forced win for the first player, but what I infer from your statement is that all your games end in draws...?
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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Quote: Connect Four is UNDERrated
I have to agree. I'd rate it around a 7 myself. If you like Connect 4, though, you really must try GIPF ... in fact, the whole of Project GIPF!
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The Dude
United States
Arizona
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If you enjoy Connect 4, you really try Quarto!
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James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
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Patrick Carroll wrote: One of the breakthrough pleasures in my gaming career was when I discovered chess books back in high school. Studying annotated games taught me how to understand a game I'd never have grasped just by trial and error.
I enjoyed chess books much more than I ever enjoyed chess. Endgame puzzles were especially fun.
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DORGON
United States
Round Rock
Texas
Entertainment for those who don't think young & don't think old
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Another obscure game you may want to look at is IQ 5. Played this several years ago, and is a very clever game.
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Steve Wood
United States
Stamford
Connecticut
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I agree completely with Geosphere. He nailed it.
Coincidentally, my kids have been playing a lot of Connect Four these past few days, and I've been playing with them. There's just not a lot to be desired.
You said it yourself, the game has been solved. I imagine it wouldn't take much to memorize the potential library of board configurations in order to always bring the game to a win or draw depending upon which player starts. That equals "no fun" to me.
I like a game to be sufficiently complex such that you are (seemingly) always experiencing new situations no matter how long you play it.
"Winning" a game of Connect Four is not so much about your strategy, as it is hoping that the other player isn't paying attention.
On a side note, I am also surprised that a person with such an awesome avatar would write this:
Quote: If a game has no strategy, it's just a toy and toys are not what bring us together.
Legos are toys and they certainly bring my family together!  We're crazy about Legos.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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mrraow wrote: Geosphere wrote: We no longer play each other, as it is absurd to wait for a win. Just like Tic Tac Toe. Paul, what are you saying? In connect 4, there is a forced win for the first player, but what I infer from your statement is that all your games end in draws...?
I let the kids go first and see if I can get out of it. Usually I can.
Heck, often they can.
I think we drew some 19 of 20 plays when we stopped.
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Laurence Parsons
United Kingdom
Bristol
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I must be missing something here.
A computer going first can force a win;
A computer going second can force a draw;
...does not compute.
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Philip Eve
United Kingdom
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freduk wrote: I must be missing something here.
A computer going first can force a win;
A computer going second can force a draw;
...does not compute.
According to Wikipedia: the first player wins with perfect play, and if the first player does not play in the central column with his first move, then the second player can force a draw. If the first player uses his first move to play in the outer 4 columns, the 2nd player wins with perfect play.
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Harald Korneliussen
Norway
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BoardGameBondy wrote: Chess is the epitome of strategy. Checkers, less so.
So, you praise Connect Four but join in the bash against Checkers? Perfect play is much, much harder even in Anglo-American Checkers than in connect four.
Quote: Tic Tac Toe is crap.
No, no, no. To understand abstracts, you need to first understand Tic-Tac-Toe, although Tic-Tac-Toe isn't exactly a game. It's more like a freemason's handshake. When a kid asks another to play Tic-Tac-Toe, it's a way of asking: "Have you cracked the code and achieved enlightenment, like I have?".
The joy of "hey, I understand this too!" is a large part of the joy of abstracts.
And speaking of initiations, and cracking the code... since you took a bash at checkers, I will ask you the Shibboleth question for abstract fans: What is the most important, most distinct rule in Checkers?
The many fools who have answered that wrongly, have given the game it's undeserved low reputation (and BGG rating). Remember to hide your answer with Spoiler (mouseover to reveal): the spoiler tag !
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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freduk wrote: I must be missing something here.
A computer going first can force a win;
A computer going second can force a draw;
...does not compute.
You can beat the online ones - their logic if not 100%. The Hasbro one plays well, but loses. Most often it draws.
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Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
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vintermann wrote:
And speaking of initiations, and cracking the code... since you took a bash at checkers, I will ask you the Shibboleth question for abstract fans: What is the most important, most distinct rule in Checkers?
Ummm . . .
Spoiler (mouseover to reveal): You must jump if you can
?
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Philip Eve
United Kingdom
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Patrick Carroll wrote: Ummm . . . Spoiler (mouseover to reveal): You must jump if you can ?
Spoiler (mouseover to reveal): I've played a variation in which it is legal to refuse a capture, BUT if you have one or more captures available and you choose to make a non-capturing move instead, then before taking his turn your opponent may remove one of your pieces that could have performed a capture. This was referred to as "huffing" the removed piece.
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Ralph T
United States
Signal Hill
California
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BoardGameBondy wrote: As much as I love boardgames (which as a lot btw) I suck at them. Of the countless times I've played Catan, Power Grid, Lowenherz, even Monopoly, I have yet to win. Not even once, I swear. Don't get me wrong, I definitely know winning isn't everything. I play boardgames because they're fun and a great way to spend time with friends. Winning is just a perk. That's not to say I wouldn't like to win though. A lifetime losing streak isn't the greatest. But why do I lose? I have no strategy. Ain't got no board game! (haha?) Anyways, here's where my little thesis comes in. On some level, every boardgame that isn't Candyland or Life has something in common, STRATEGY! If a game has no strategy, it's just a toy and toys are not what bring us together. I digress. Depending on the level of random chance a game has, we are required to form an offense and balance it with our defense. We have to anticipate the moves of others and act accordingly. Chess is the epitome of strategy. Checkers, less so. Tic Tac Toe is crap. Connect Four? I don't know if you've heard but Connect Four has been solved, which means that with perfect play, a computer will beat you every time if it starts and draw you everytime if you start (same as in Tic Tac Toe except not crap). Here's my point! Yeah, the kids on the box are like eight years old but we could all stand to learn something from Connect Four. I bet you'd be hard-pressed to win or draw everytime you faced a worthy adversary. It really does require you to think ahead and be perceptive(which I'm not, at all). It's like training! Connect four is an abstract strategy game but really, most good games are just abstract strategy games with cool frills and a storyline. Connect Four has been done an injustice. It's dismissed as too simple, too easy and a game for kids. Clearly it's no chess but Connect Four is not as easy as it looks, especially if you're like me and you seem to repel victory points. Just give it a chance. At least try to appreciate what I'm saying here,even if you are all above that level of gaming, As for me, I'm working on my strategy. I play abstract strategy games, like chess, as my own sort of training regimen so that come next boardgame night, maybe I can win, who knows. I did win my first game of Ticket to Ride fyi. Enough babbling, I hope you enjoyed my thoughts. Please leave comments and stuff! Roy Here's a link to a Milton Bradley version of online Connect Four: http://host.exemplum.com/hasbro/connectfour/connectfour.htmThey say the best defense is a good offense. For Connect Four, I say the best offense is a good defense. Have fun. Keep it clean!
It sounds as though you have yet to play any new abstract games. While Connect 4 is not 100% a kid's game, there are better choices such as Othello or Chinese checkers, and there are new abstract games which are much deeper than Connect 4--even the mainstream Blokus series or Qwirkle is far superior. Connect 4 is basically a solved game. The first player should not lose.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
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freduk wrote:
A computer going first can force a win;
A computer going second can force a draw;
If two computers play each other, the universe explodes.
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Tomello Visello
United States
Reston
Virginia
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BoardGameBondy wrote: Connect Four has been done an injustice. It's dismissed as too simple, too easy and a game for kids. Sadly I must report a recent discovery that shows your uplifting thesis is being seriously undermined by the publisher's own marketing campaign.
CONNECT 4 SpongeBob Squarepants Edition
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