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Subject: Tie results in combat rss

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bestia immonda
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Please explain me if I'm doing it wrong:

if someone after playing a TC reset the combat score ( sum=ZERO ), then the next player IF IT HAS GOT A SUITED CARD ( not a reserve ) MUST PLAY IT

( I'm missing the rationale also... )


reworded: "suited" instead of "trump card"
 
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Tim Schwarz
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Re: Zero sum combats
nicktaruffi wrote:
Please explain me if I'm doing it wrong:

if someone after playing a TC reset the combat score ( sum=ZERO ), then the next player IF IT HAS GOT A TRUMP CARD ( not a reserve ) MUST PLAY IT

That sounds right. Generally, I explain the rule as one combatant has the obligation to attack, although the power is not actually obligated to attack. Obligation shifts when the total goes from negative to positive.

So if France has the obligation, France can either play a card or choose to retreat. After each card played, check who had the obligation to attack, then let that power make the choice above. If combat starts at a tie, the active player starts with the obligation to attack, but could choose to retreat (for zero, so a draw)

Now comes the part you are asking about. If the power with the obligation to attack manages to get the value to exactly zero, then the obligation shifts, but the new power CANNOT choose to retreat (draw) if the new power has a TC of the appropriate trump. Conversely, if the new power lacks the appropriate trump TC, the power CAN choose to retreat (draw). Reserve cards are of no trump, so are not obligatory to play.


( I'm missing the ratio also... )

Please clarify. I don't understand.



Does that help?
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bestia immonda
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Re: Zero sum combats
Ok it seems I did it right, but somehow I feel that's not fair.
I had 2 combats in the same sector ( me:Austria ) VS Saxony and Prussians.
I wanted to stall and not hurt too much Saxony and pound Prussians.
My opponent wisely choose to fight with the Saxon first, but I HAD to commit my TEN because of the zero sum after a quick excange of "blows" ( i.e: TC cards ) that I wanted to use against Prussians.
I DESTROYED the Saxon Army ( and I didn't want that but I had to commit my TEN... )but then the Prussians obliterated my other army in the subsequent fight that I wanted to fight at best.

Didn't feel all right.
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Tim Schwarz
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Re: Zero sum combats
Yeah, your opponent figured out the strategy for forced play. Next time, you'll avoid a position with two fights in one suit.
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bestia immonda
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Re: Zero sum combats
Thanks,
it was my first try and his second and he's a very smart overall player.
I learned that positioning the army according to the "suit" of cards you have in hand is VERY important.

I'm still missing the ratio behind the "forced play", why the designer choose it?
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Glenn
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Re: Zero sum combats
I don't know that I'd label combat zero sum. Scoring with the victory markers is mostly zero sum ( mostly because some victory conditions such as electing emperor adds a victory marker to the winner with nothing removed from loser.) Combat simply results in either a winner/loser combination or a tie. I believe you are handling combat correctly although the term trump is mainly used in the political influence phase with trump being one suit that outranks all (or in this case, is the only suit that matters.) Combat uses the suit of the sector that the general stands in. Subsequently, each opposing general could have a different suit to play if they attack/defend from different sector. As far as I can see, the only time a general in combat is forced to play a card is when the combat score is reduced to zero. Then the opposing general must play a card if he has one of the correct suit for the sector he stands in. If the general does not have the correct suit to play, based upon the sector he stands in, then the result is a tie. A player is not, however, required to play a reserve card in this situation.

Hope that helps and is not too wordy.
 
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bestia immonda
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Re: Tie results combats
I changed the topic title hope that helps.
Sorry I was in a hurry!


The game designer very often answers questions here on BGG, if it shows up in this thread I'm very curious to know why he choose to force card play when combat gets to zero.
Hey no ranting here, I'm just puzzled!
 
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Mark Luta
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I would say the rationale is to emulate the possible historical outcomes of the battles of the mid-18th Century. Most battles were indecisive, but occasionally there was one that was decisive, and even more occasionally one was an absolute disaster for one side. So the ability to force the other side to play trump at a zero score is perhaps some abstraction of brilliant strategy and tactics used at a battle. And in the example cited, perhaps the positioning of the defender was a strategic blunder?

As a general rule, it is a really bad result to fight a combat on your own turn which ends with a zero score....
 
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richard sivel
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Strange, I had written an answer yesterday night, but it does not show up here... So let me try again

Basically, there are 5 methods to solve the rules-singularity when a player reaches a score of zero:

a) The player is not allowed to play a card which results in a score of zero.
b) The player who reaches the score of zero MUST play another card (if he has one).
c) The player who reaches the score of zero is allowed to say "retreat" which would end in a tie (no losses for anybody).
d) The other player receives the right to play a card, and can say "retreat" (no losses for anybody
e) The other player receives the right to play a card, but now he MUST play a card if he has one of the correct suit. (That's the rule as written in the rulebook.)

Option a) seems to restrictive for me. I do not like it.

Option c) and d) make it too easy to end the combat in a tie with no losses. Not good for the game.

This leaves us option b) and e). --- Note that in the whole combat mechanic it is quite easy to abort from combat by playing on -1 and retreating. It is very difficult to deplete another player's hand if he repeatedly chooses to retreat very soon. Therefore I decided to go with option e, because with that you can force the other one to play a card. -- Of course, this has a risky effect as well: If he has no correct card left, then the combat is simply a tie.

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bestia immonda
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Thanks, and thumbs up for a well designed, fascinating "waro" (?).
And is very kind of you to show up and answering all these questions, it is really appreciated!
Danke schoen!
 
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richard sivel
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My pleasure, nicola.
 
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Tom Dickson
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In Friedrich playing to tie is an effective way to drain cards - but if you tie and they have no cards, no objectives are caught. In Maria I try to only tie once or twice, and then play to down three.
At that, they have to have a 2 or a reserve to retreat 1; otherwise I get a chance to play again. If they take the retreat three, I can get a victory marker.
 
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Alex P
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Proof not needed for 11.1 rule ties?
The rules require us to prove we can't pay the TCs when dealing with Hussars but here no. Is this intended? Does the player not have to prove that he has no cards in the required suit?
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Mark Luta
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No proof is required, as displaying the entire hand would result in an enormous advantage to other players.

Note that under the Friedrich tournament rules, a tie combat result where the side at 'zero' has no cards of the correct suit to play, must be verified by a player in another game. So if there is anyone else around the table area not playing, you could ask them to check the hand, if you do not trust your opponents....
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Shawn Woods
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I was wondering about something Richard just mentioned: is it a smart play to sometimes get the score to -1 and retreat? It seems that pushing it beyond could be, at times, disastrous.

For example:

I have a 2 and 3 of Hearts. I can play the 2 (at -3) and bring it to -1 and 3 to bring it to +2. Since I have no other Hearts, I can no longer volley back the attack if the opposition has a 3+ (single or combination). Also, it seems that playing the 3 would be a very bad idea since the opposition would only need a card greater than 2 to beat me.

So I guess, is playing to -1 or -2 and retreating a coward move? Or a smart move? Or depends on the situation?
 
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Mark Christopher
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In the wonderful game, Bonaparte at Marengo, this is how to get nasty Frenchies out of a village.
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Depends on the situation; your hand, what you think the enemy has in his, and so on. For Austria in the early portion of the game, losing by -1 a lot is probably the smart move.
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Mark Luta
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Losing by -2 also seems to work well in Maria, particularly when one can save cards by doing so and possibly even gain a good draw in that suit next turn. The -2 retreat avoids gaining and losing a Battle VP, a consideration which does not exist under this combat system in Friedrich. Since there are much smaller hand sizes in Maria than in Friedrich, one also has a much better idea of what cards one's opponent holds (particularly true for the Prussia/Pragmatic player, who will personally see roughly half the first deck dealt from between starting hands and the Turn 1 deal!).
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