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Subject: Money for the iPhone rss

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Gabriel Stern
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http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/reiner-knizias-money/id349220...
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Chris Schenck
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Thanks for the heads up. I just snagged it and on first pass it seems pretty solid. No sound though, which seems weird. No biggie though. I usually end up turning sound off on iPhone games anyway.

REINER babe, you're killing me here. All of these iPhone games of yours, yet no Ra or (more reasonably) Battle Line. Give us some more A-list fame love! Ingenious is great, so bring out the other big hitters!
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Remus McRhymus
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I know it's not Ra or Battleline, but it according to the promo in the Money app, it looks like High Society is coming Q2 2010.
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Sean Todd
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cbs42 wrote:
Thanks for the heads up. I just snagged it and on first pass it seems pretty solid. No sound though, which seems weird. No biggie though. I usually end up turning sound off on iPhone games anyway.

REINER babe, you're killing me here. All of these iPhone games of yours, yet no Ra or (more reasonably) Battle Line. Give us some more A-list fame love! Ingenious is great, so bring out the other big hitters!


I've never played Battleline, is it different enough from Knights of Charlemagne to warrant another app? I like the Knights of Charlemagne app, my only complaint is that I wish the starting player was random.
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Shannon Appelcline
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If you're interested in some insight into the design of a game like this, I published two articles on it yesterday night.

This one was posted to BoardGameNews.com and talks about adapting a game from one medium to another:
http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment...

This one was posted to my iPhone in Action programming blog, and talks about some of the programming design choices:
http://iphoneinaction.manning.com/iphone_in_action/2010/01/c...
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Lance Moody
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Hi Shannon,

A quick note to say thanks for the game.

The bid button was quite unresponsive for me, requirng several pushes. With no sound feedback this became unpleasant quickly.
Also might be nice to be able to get a better gauge on how many card were still in the deck.

Thanks again. Look forward to updates.

Lance
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Shannon Appelcline
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lancemoody wrote:

The bid button was quite unresponsive for me, requirng several pushes. With no sound feedback this became unpleasant quickly.


Yep, thinking about sounds for future releases.

Quote:

Also might be nice to be able to get a better gauge on how many card were still in the deck.


The graphic depicting the draw deck changes over time. In addition you can touch-and-hold the draw deck at any time when you're active to get a current card count.
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Christopher Allen
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Quote:
with no sound feedback this became unpleasant quickly.


Sound is an interesting design problem. I'm not a big fan of puzzle games that provide their own sound, because I prefer to have iPod music running in the background over the annoying repetitious music of many games. Doing a good sound and music design for a game can be as expensive to develop as the iPhone application itself.

-- Christopher Allen
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Steve Blanding
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ChristopherA wrote:
Quote:
with no sound feedback this became unpleasant quickly.


Sound is an interesting design problem. I'm not a big fan of puzzle games that provide their own sound, because I prefer to have iPod music running in the background over the annoying repetitious music of many games. Doing a good sound and music design for a game can be as expensive to develop as the iPhone application itself.

-- Christopher Allen


This is precisely why I chose not to do sound for my iPhone version of Mü. Action games need sound. Card games generally don't. I'd rather hear my own music.

BTW, I should add that I've played Shannon's game and I recommend it.
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Lance Moody
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New version is out now. Very enjoyable. Still wish for more immediate response when pressing Bid button instead of unsatisfying delay(much better in new version but still lags a bit). Otherwise looking good. Thanks Shannon.
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Ben Stanley
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cbs42 wrote:
REINER babe, you're killing me here. All of these iPhone games of yours, yet no Ra or (more reasonably) Battle Line. Give us some more A-list fame love! Ingenious is great, so bring out the other big hitters!


I just picked this one up. It's a great Knizia game, and I'll probably pick up everything he does on the iPhone (and am thrilled to see a brilliant designer supporting the platform so much) but I agree with the people who want to see just a few other games of his that would also be incredibly easy to convert.

My wishlist is:

Battleline (with an option to turn off the tactics cards)
Lost Cities
Ra: The Dice Game
Samurai
Ra
Samurai: The Card Game
Tigris & Euphrates
Thor
Blue Moon (with expansions: an excellent AI for this one already exists)

The only one of those that would be really hard would be T&E, and several of those would have been better and much easier than Money!
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Shannon Appelcline
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The new 1.05 version of this game just was released to the iPhone Store today. It contains the first AI upgrades since the original game. In my opinion, the AIs of the newest version are considerably better (averaging 100 more points each, with a couple [Dan & Deb] that average 200 more points), but because Money is a zero-sum game, the overall difficulty is only somewhat harder. My win-loss ratio since installing the new AIs for test is 17:17.

So, it's not an end point, but hopefully an improvement. Download the newest version and let me know what you think.

(I expect the next AI upgrade will be a month away, as I'm going to probably try and build a few algorithms from scratch next time, rather than tweaking the originals, as I think more versatility of strategies will improve the gaming experience.)

Also included in this update: a fix for cards ending up gray when you play in touch-to-continue mode; and the introduction of a "difficulty" switch which controls which AIs are in the game.

I've also set up a mailing list for announcements of this sort. If you'd like to hear about Money updates, future RPGnet euro releases, and any discussions of the same, send mail to:

mobile-euro-game+subscribe@googlegroups.com
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Shannon Appelcline
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Blue Steel wrote:

My wishlist is:

Battleline (with an option to turn off the tactics cards)
Lost Cities
Ra: The Dice Game
Samurai
Ra
Samurai: The Card Game
Tigris & Euphrates
Thor
Blue Moon (with expansions: an excellent AI for this one already exists)

The only one of those that would be really hard would be T&E, and several of those would have been better and much easier than Money!


We were primarily looking at card games when we made our decisions as to what to initially license. I selected Money not because it was one of the simplest to program, but because it was one of my favorites and (I feel) pretty unique.

I did query on Lost Cities, which wasn't available at the time. Ra is high on my list, but I suspect we'd have to commit to the family of games. In any case, we've got two more already-licensed games to produce next, the first of which is High Society, which I started work on today.
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Anthony Thompson
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Great app, very fun, thanks for it.

Add this to the pile of free/affordable digital apps that have inspired me to purchase the analog original.
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Andy Holt
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I've been playing this a lot (too much?) recently.
Thanks, Shannon, for a nice addition to my iPod.
A very nice implementation.

Some comments:
(on the game)
There doesn't seem to be the option to "no bid" that exists in the card game - you can probably get the same effect by bidding all your cards (if that doesn't win the auction then things are really odd!) and I doubt that there is a real situation where you would want to.

You don't seem to know who your opponents are until the first auction is resolved.

[edit - I've now found out how to ... click and hold]

(on the AIs)
That recent improvement is definitely a step-up. Especially for Dan.
The AIs never seem to use the "keep the cards I bid" option when it looks like it would sometimes be advisable.
As far as I can tell all the AIs use the "go for highest total value" strategy in one of its many forms.
There is also the "I don't have to outrun the bear, only outrun you" (ie trying to minimise the opponent's score) group of strategies that can sometimes be a better choice (ie winning by ensuring nobody else has a set of 3 20s while you aim to have 4 or 5 such). Knowing when to switch between a positive and a negative strategy dependent on the cards you have and can see is, of course, key.

It is amazing how a game where your starting hand can vary between 60 and 360 value can come out so even in the end.
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Shannon Appelcline
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andyholt wrote:

There doesn't seem to be the option to "no bid" that exists in the card game - you can probably get the same effect by bidding all your cards (if that doesn't win the auction then things are really odd!) and I doubt that there is a real situation where you would want to.


You're not the first person to ask for that. (You're the third, to be precise.) I kept it out mainly because I think that it's almost always bad strategy, but I'm now considering it as an option for a future version.

Quote:

The AIs never seem to use the "keep the cards I bid" option when it looks like it would sometimes be advisable.


Yep, I'm pretty sure you're right. Based on the code, they should, but there's clearly a bug there somewhere, and one that's a bit tricky to find.
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Shannon Appelcline
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As of today, Money is now available for the iPad too. It features some UI improvements, higher resolution cards and the ability to play with up to 5(!) players.
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Jay Volk
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I picked up the iPad app and I like it! Very fun.
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Paul Beasi
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For anyone who hasn't picked this up yet, it's free today (April 18). Great deal for a universal app version of this game!
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Ron Parker
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Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like the iOS version is significantly easier than the real thing.

I bought the real thing because I liked playing the iOS version so much, but when I read the rules for the first time this weekend I discovered that you only use all seven currency types for a five-player game. You're supposed to use six for a four-player game or five for a three-player game. But the iOS version always uses all seven currencies no matter how many players there are. Obviously, that makes for a much less competitive game, especially if you habitually play with three players as I do.

 
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