Jared Linde
United States
Connecticut
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Allow me to preface my question with this, I am a bit of a rules Nazi when playing any game. The instruction manual is always within an arms reach of me so that even the most minor of disputes can be resolved quickly. I'll settle for nothing but strict adherence to the holy doctrine of rules. The most minor of deviations is blasphemous. What's a game without any rules? (Not very fun...)
Last night I was playing a two player game of Power Grid against my girlfriend. The game was nearing its end late in step two. I had 15 capacity with 15 cities while she had 17 capacity with 20 cities. My weakest plant was able to provide power to 2 cities while her weakest could supply 3.
During the final auction round two higher capacity plants were available for bidding, the 7 capacity 36 plant and the 6 capacity 32. I reasoned that if she were to obtain the 36 the game would indubitably draw to a close with me crowned loser. However, if I could obtain the 36 she would buy the 32, we'd tie at 20 capacity and I would win because I was sitting on a mountain of cash and she was on the verge of bankruptcy...
She too realized the importance of either obtaining the 36 or draining me of every last penny she possibly could. She was the first to bid:
"I bid 50 for the 36"
"I'll bid 100"
"150"
"200"
"I don't believe it's possible for you to have that much money. I've been paying attention to how much you've been spending on resources the last few rounds."
"It's none of your business how much money I have, you told me it was a rule that money was private." (Yep, she got me there...)
"But I don't think you can make a bid for more money than you have."
"Why not? You can bluff in poker..."
My hand deftly reached for the rules manual. My copy of Power Grid is fairly new so it contains the newest revision of the rules as far as I know. The rules are quite succinct and are not particularly open to interpretation. However, nowhere does it say that you can or can't purposely bluff during the auction round in order to gouge the final price paid for a plant. Apparently, there is also no penalty for overbidding, intentional or not. It is a rule that you can keep how much money you have a secret, if that is the case then how do you know a person is good for their bid?
I realize a similar question has been asked on this forum however, in that case the overbid was not intentional. A verdict must be reached on this stipulation or every subsequent game of Power Grid I ever play with her will surely end in some philosophical debate on the semantics of the printed rules.
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Halesowen Boardgamer
United Kingdom
Halesowen
West Midlands
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It is in the FAQ here.
http://www.2f-spiele.de/spiele/faq/faq_frames_eng.htm
You can't bid more money than you have.
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Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
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There seems to be no official statement about this, but widespread consensus is that you can not bid more than you have.
Otherwise, what happens if you win the auction?
Do you pay what you have, e.g. only $40 when you'd bid up to $200 to win? That seems obviously unfair.
Does the last other bidder pay what their last bid was? That also seems obviously unfair that they have to pay much more because you lied.
Do we redo the auction? Then you could simply cause the game to never end by repeatedly bidding more than you have.
See Power Grid FAQ:
Power Grid FAQ wrote:
EDIT: Aha! I see 2F's FAQ answers this! Thanks, DaveD! Updating the BGG Wiki FAQ now... 
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David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
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You could just let her spend every dollar she has on the #36, if she really wants to. Then she can't buy fuel for it and you'll win easily with a lesser plant.
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Jared Linde
United States
Connecticut
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Thanks for the quick replies I'll refer to the FAQ the next time this is an issue.
@DaviddesJ - It turned out that she did not actually have the 200 dollars she had bid. She had not intention of winning the bid, only driving the price up for me so that I wouldn't be able to afford the houses I needed to match my new capacity.
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David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
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Yardgnome wrote: @DaviddesJ - It turned out that she did not actually have the 200 dollars she had bid. She had not intention of winning the bid, only driving the price up for me so that I wouldn't be able to afford the houses I needed to match my new capacity.
Yes, I understand that. My point is that you still win if you just pass the bid. She can't pay the $200, but even if you let her just pay what she has then she still loses.
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Randall Bart
United States
Granada Hills
California
Red October
Earth is one of my favorite planets
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I would rule that she has bid all the money she has. You normally aren't entitled to know the amount she has, but she always has to tell you the exact amount of the bid. You can let her have it at that price, or bid one more.
The most I have seen someone pay for a plant and still win is $180.
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David K.
United States
Pflugerville
Texas
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How about in these heated auction situations, that with every bid, the bidder has to show the money is available before the bidding moves on?
Player 1: I bid 100!
Player 2: Show me the Money! (must say it like Cuba Gooding Jr.)
Player 1: Nevermind, take it...
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Kevin Brown
United States
Macon
Georgia
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All the more reason to not have secret money.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
Stalker!!!
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Balou wrote: In our group, it is cristal clear: if you cannot pay what you have bid,
- you will not receive the plant currently on auction, and
- you are excluded from bidding any further during the current turn, and
- the auction carries on as if you had passed or bought a plant.
That means in the particular case the OP has presented, if he cannot pay he is out of that auction. And since it was a two-player game, the other player is then entitled to take what they like for list price!
Your solution has a major flaw: If you outbid me, although I haven't had the money I was bidding on the plant you've got, you'll over-pay a plant you could've gotten cheaper if I wasn't cheating.
Clearly, if there is a player who plays like this, he either will accommodate and play correctly or it was his/her last game with me. In any case, the "show the money you're bidding" variant is the best to avoid situations like this and it doesn't break any game rules.
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Fraser
Australia
Melbourne
Yep that was 12 Power Grid maps back to back over two days. Worth doing, but possibly not in such a concentrated burst.
Ooh yes, now a little to the left - my nose is itchy. No, no the other left! Now what colour is 12 supporter badge going to be I wonder?
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Most people count their money before they bid, often deducting future fuel purchases and builds from the total to derive their maximum possible bid.
Some people recount their money before each and every bid.
As a blanket rule we do not allow bids of more money that you have.
In all my games I have only seen one occasion of somebody bidding more than they actually had (they miscounted their money). By consensus we restarted that auction from scratch (and the other players now knew how much money that player had).
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J Chav
United States
West Valley City
Utah
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russ wrote: There seems to be no official statement about this, but widespread consensus is that you can not bid more than you have. Otherwise, what happens if you win the auction? Do you pay what you have, e.g. only $40 when you'd bid up to $200 to win? That seems obviously unfair. Does the last other bidder pay what their last bid was? That also seems obviously unfair that they have to pay much more because you lied. Do we redo the auction? Then you could simply cause the game to never end by repeatedly bidding more than you have. See Power Grid FAQ: Power Grid FAQ wrote: EDIT: Aha! I see 2F's FAQ answers this! Thanks, DaveD! Updating the BGG Wiki FAQ now...
I believe that player goes immediately to jail... they do not pass go and they do not collect $200.
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Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
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Ponton wrote: Clearly, if there is a player who plays like this, he either will accommodate and play correctly or it was his/her last game with me. In any case, the "show the money you're bidding" variant is the best to avoid situations like this and it doesn't break any game rules.
The "show the money you're bidding" variant does have the disadvantage of slowing the game down, however, especially if one needs to make change. Although I'm a believer in "trust but verify", in this specific case the verification seems not worth the price of slower auctions because in reality, I've never experienced the problem of someone bidding more than they can pay.
But indeed other people's groups may be different and may have more careless people, or actual cheaters. (But in the case of intentional cheating, the cheater can still cheat in a variety of ways in a complex game like PG... it's probably not possible to think of and catch every possible cheat... e.g. sleight of hand with the power plant deck...)
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Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
Stalker!!!
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You're right, Russ. That's why I don't play with the "show the money" variant. Auctions are pretty fast here and such a variant would really slow the game down remarkably. Luckily, I haven't met anybody who wanted to bid more than he/she had, yet.
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Travis Hall
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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russ wrote: The "show the money you're bidding" variant does have the disadvantage of slowing the game down, however, especially if one needs to make change.
Nobody ever needs to make change when showing the money they are bidding in order to prove that they have it.
To make change, you have to show the large note (or poker chip) you are breaking into smaller denominations. As the requirement is to show that you have enough to pay, you can simply show that large note. Nobody hides any information by breaking the note at that point. You only have to make change if you actually win the auction.
Showing exactly what you are bidding would only be an advantage if there is a problem with verbal communication for some reason. I can see an advantage to it when playing in a noisy environment, or if somebody has a hearing disability, but in those cases, you are accepting the slowness to work around a problem that you can't avoid with just speech.
Edit: Come to think of it, I've been known to show my money when bidding even without being asked to do so. It hasn't slowed down my play at all.
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Daniel Corban
Canada
Newmarket
Ontario
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See Giganten for an example of a game which has explicit rules on legal bluff bids.
I think it is fair to assume that the bids for any auction component in a game are limited to resources on hand.
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Daniel Brill
United States
Los Angeles
California
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I definitely think it is illegal to bid more than you have, as the rules are clear that you can't go in to debt. If its an accident, then of course in casual play forgive it and redo the auction. But if its on purpose, I would consider that cheating.
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