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Subject: This...is a family game? rss

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Randy Cox
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I know that some people (Derk) equate "Family subdomain" to "lite euro game." But the poll text is still "good for adults and kids."

Well, I keep seeing games which I just wouldn't want kids and adults to play together.

One that popped up tonight, as I was still making my way through my collection to categorize all the games, was Schrille Stille. Now, don't get me wrong. Schrille Stille is a great game.

But the band names are not for mixed (kid and adult) company. Miami Bitches? Titty Tarantel? I think there's even a F*ck You band in the mix. How does one explain that to a 9 year old? Or younger?

Yet, it's got 5 out of 6 votes as a "Famliy Game (good for kids and adults)" and only one dissenting vote (my Strategy vote).

Thoughts?
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Bob Rivard
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I'd be pretty mad if I bought the game to play with my family, with no warning of that kind of language. Mostly it's offensive because those names you list are just adolescent-sounding, They aren't just rude, they're stupid and tasteless.
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Clay
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"Fuck" is probably a bit over the top for a kids game but those other words aren't really that surprising, I'd be more intrigued to find a 9 year old that doesn't already know them.

My advice would be to not play it as a family game if that bothers you. I'm not sure what else you expect, I'm not familiar with the game but apparently a decent number of people disagree with you.
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The problem is probably not that the kids know (or: have heard) certain words, but that they hear it in an environment which is "parent-approved".

I, too, know some words which I woudn't use in front of my mother - or kids, if I had any. Or anybody, actually.
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Clay
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Motorkopf wrote:
The problem is probably not that the kids know (or: have heard) certain words, but that they hear it in an environment which is "parent-approved".

I, too, know some words which I woudn't use in front of my mother - or kids, if I had any. Or anybody, actually.


Could one not make it clear that it isn't "parent approved" and just happens to be in the game? Seems like that would be a pretty short and simple conversation.

I should probably go look at the game entry (And I think I'll do just that right after this), but how important is it to have all of the bands? Would it still be playable without the "offensive" ones?

Edit: Nevermind, with only 14 bands it would be disastrous to remove any. However, they appear to be nothing more than names and pictures, which means it should be simply to simply create some homemade bands, yes? That adds an extra layer of creativity to the set-up (Something that's generally good with kids) and removes any language issues.
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Peter
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The Message wrote:
My advice would be to not play it as a family game if that bothers you. I'm not sure what else you expect, I'm not familiar with the game but apparently a decent number of people disagree with you.


I wonder how many people who rated it as a family game have even played it? - they may have just gone from the description, or played it so long ago they'd forgotten the band names. I've edited the game description to add a warning.

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Randy Cox
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The Message wrote:
My advice would be to not play it as a family game if that bothers you.
That's not the issue. I, knowing the game, can easily keep the kids from playing. But since this whole subdomain thing is designed specifically to have a Top Family Games list so that people looking for SdJ-ish games can weed out all the gamer geek stuff, we end up with this sort of anomaly which is created simply due to the insistence on combining "Family" (truly, for kids [and that means single digits in age], adults, and grandparents at the same table) and "Lite Euro" (which is something else entirely).

But the Powers that Are want the word "Family" at the head of the "Lite Euro" list because that happens to be the misguided word used by game marketers in Germany.

My point is simply that we shouldn't combine the two categories. Maybe a solution would be to continue the polling as it is today (already too invested in the eight categories we have) but have nine subcategory lists...

- One would be "Family Friendly" and would include games that are in the "Family" subdomain AND have at least 5% of the polling vote for "Childrens Game."

- The other would be whatever is left over in the Family group and could be called "European Family" or "Lite Euro" or whatever the marketers over there want to call it.

I think that would segregate out what is really the teen and adult market called "Family" in Germany and keep the one called "Family Friendly" tamer and more in line with what US buyers who stumble on this site might be looking for.
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Stoic Bird
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I had a similar reaction of surprise when I saw Chez Geek listed as a family game (a large part of the game is "nookie" cards, and the box age recommendation is 18+...I see it's just Thematic now, but it had both when I voted). I don't have occasion to play with children often, so for me, when I see family game, in my head it's subtitled "games I can play with my wife and in-laws," people who, left to their own devices, wouldn't play anything you don't see at Target, but have enjoyed games like Coloretto and Dominion. For me, the restrictions on objectionable content are still there even though we're all adults because the in-laws wouldn't appreciate something like you're describing, but I can also picture some families I know playing Chez Geek with or without small children (I haven't played Schrille Stille, so I can't really comment there).

Having said that, I still think it'll always be somewhat subjective because different people have different standards. My mom used to teach first grade, and would tell me about the six year olds who watched Silence of the Lambs. Someone brought an infant into 28 Weeks Later when I saw it in the theater. I agree with what you're saying, and at least Chez Geek has a user suggested age that suggests small children shouldn't play it, but short of using the user suggested ages in conjuction with the family game label, I don't know that there's a good solution here. Given that Chez Geek has overwhelmingly been rejected as a family game by the community now, perhaps the same will happen with Schrille Stille over time.

Edited because I forgot they do have text labels in the poll and missed that in the OP.
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Odkin wrote:
[...] They aren't just rude, they're stupid and tasteless.

As compared to real band names?
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Randy Cox
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I just ran a quick query to see if there were any "moderate-to-high" weight games, with a minimum age of 12, and a subdomain of "Family." Here are the results:

Chinatown (1999)
Starfarers of Catan (1999)
Evo (2001)
Candamir: The First Settlers (2004)
The Settlers of Zarahemla (2003)
Was sticht? (1994)

I would say that, for me at least, Chinatown is definitely NOT a "Family" game as defined in the polling text ("Good for kids and adults"). Likewise, Was sticht isn't close to something you'd play with Muffy and Jimmy who are in early primary school. In fact, pretty much all of these are not Family, when you talk about kids and adults playing together.

And I guess the 12-to-adult tag is what tells us that is the case. So, if we could get the Family listing to show minimum and maximum age, might that be a better tool for visitors to the site (people who have no idea how to manipulate the Advanced Search feature) when they're looking for a good holiday gift?
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Mike Jones
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I 'might' try Evo with my family.

But, there is no way I'm playing Chinatown with my family. It would hardly be sporting 'negotiating' with my 8 year old.
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ronaldinho @boardspace.net
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I think there is a difference between "I would play this with my family," and calling something a "family game."

Women cook, but is cooking "women's job?"

I'll play most games with a family. But it takes more than that to be a family game.
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Randy Cox
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thereofone wrote:
Well wouldn't early primary school still be Children's Games?
But the "Family" subdomain says it is for games that are fun for kids and adults. "Children" games, by extension, would only be fun for kids.
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"It's a figure of speech, Morty"
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And the case for calling euro-games what they really are, even if in 2 separate subdomains, grows stronger whistle
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Mike Jones
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thereofone wrote:
Well wouldn't early primary school still be Children's Games?


In different to what BGG's subdomains are or aren't called, if I were to talk or read about 'family' games (in the US), I'd be talking about games the nuclear unit would pay at the dinner table. Those would be parents and kids with an occasional grandparent.

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Carc >> BSG
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I was surprised to hear Would You Rather? being advertised by Glenn Beck as a family game. I had just played it a few days before and there were a lot of questions I wouldn't ask in a family setting. Of course, this is Glenn Beck, who recommends that you don't eat the Apples to Apples board, so when he says he played it with his family that's probably as truthful as the iPad commercial claiming you have access to the entire web.
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Simple Solution: Go Here and vote it off the list.

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Rik Van Horn
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I much prefer taking the kids to the fair and teaching them to bludgeon small, furry animals.
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Bill Eldard
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Randy Cox wrote:
thereofone wrote:
Well wouldn't early primary school still be Children's Games?
But the "Family" subdomain says it is for games that are fun for kids and adults. "Children" games, by extension, would only be fun for kids.


These are a good example of the difficulty in defining subdomains and classifying games. Some classify a game by what is, and others by what it is not.

The subdomain fora may become self-licking ice cream cones dominated by threads continuingly debating (a) the definition of the subdomain, and (b) the assignments of specific games to the subdomains.

And everytime a new BGGer enters the fora, the debates will be resume anew.
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Larry Welborn
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I agree with Randy. There should be two sub-domains, "family" which are games enjoyed by kids and adults, and "Light Strategy" or "Light Euro".
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TC Petty III
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If the definition of family is two adults and two children under 10 years of age, then yes, this whole argument would be reasonable. However, if 20% of the world's population is under 10 years old, then the likelihood of a family game including players over the ages of 10 is much higher. Plus, because "children's games" encompasses kids of the "younger" variety, you can cross out the percentage of kids who are 7 or under.

That leaves us with family members between the ages of 8 and 10 who might be misrepresented by this game that includes the word "bitches".

I think the general definition of family should encompass something a bit more statistically sound and not just what TV commercials and sitcoms portray. I don't have any family members or 1st cousins under the age of 16 currently.
 
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Randy Cox
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I'd say that families with kids in the 7-10 range are a significant percentage of the family market. See, once the kids are in the upper teens, you just have a group of adults (or adults and some damn-near-adults) playing games together.
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Jesse Haulk
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Randy Cox wrote:
I know that some people (Derk) equate "Family subdomain" to "lite euro game." But the poll text is still "good for adults and kids."

Well, I keep seeing games which I just wouldn't want kids and adults to play together.

One that popped up tonight, as I was still making my way through my collection to categorize all the games, was Schrille Stille. Now, don't get me wrong. Schrille Stille is a great game.

But the band names are not for mixed (kid and adult) company. Miami Bitches? Titty Tarantel? I think there's even a F*ck You band in the mix. How does one explain that to a 9 year old? Or younger?

Yet, it's got 5 out of 6 votes as a "Famliy Game (good for kids and adults)" and only one dissenting vote (my Strategy vote).

Thoughts?



I knew about those words when I was 9. Does there exist a place where kids aren't educated?
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Mike Jones
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BlueSapphire wrote:
Randy Cox wrote:
I know that some people (Derk) equate "Family subdomain" to "lite euro game." But the poll text is still "good for adults and kids."

Well, I keep seeing games which I just wouldn't want kids and adults to play together.

One that popped up tonight, as I was still making my way through my collection to categorize all the games, was Schrille Stille. Now, don't get me wrong. Schrille Stille is a great game.

But the band names are not for mixed (kid and adult) company. Miami Bitches? Titty Tarantel? I think there's even a F*ck You band in the mix. How does one explain that to a 9 year old? Or younger?

Yet, it's got 5 out of 6 votes as a "Famliy Game (good for kids and adults)" and only one dissenting vote (my Strategy vote).

Thoughts?



I knew about those words when I was 9. Does there exist a place where kids aren't educated?


It doesn't mean that you have to encourage it.
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Mike Jones
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Randy Cox wrote:
I'd say that families with kids in the 7-10 range are a significant percentage of the family market. See, once the kids are in the upper teens, you just have a group of adults (or adults and some damn-near-adults) playing games together.


Once they get to be between 11-13 they may be able to start playing 'strategy' games with your gaming friends.

I too am of the opinion that 'family' games are for play with your kids and non-gaming spouses before they are ready for 'more' strategic games, but older then the 'Cootie' crowd.

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