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Subject: This...is a family game? rss

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Russ Williams
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
That was not at all my intent. Please don't take it personally.

OK, fair enough, I believe you.
Quote:
The subject can be broken down into two parts (at least):

1) Whether there is a difference between what is appropriate for adults and what is appropriate for children.

2) Which specific things, such as the f-word, are inappropriate for children.

You may well disagree with me on #2, while agreeing with me on #1. That doesn't make one childish.

My statement was only that if you disagree on #1, then you are *probably* childish.

OK, but again, I don't recall anyone in the thread falling into category #1, so I still don't see the point of even bringing up the case of people who won't/can't/don't/fail_to/whatever think there is a difference between what is appropriate for adults and what is appropriate for children.

It just seems like a confusing red herring since it doesn't apply to any of the people in the thread. ... But perhaps I missed or don't remember some such post, as admittedly the thread is long and has been spread out over a rather long time, lying dormant and then springing back to life.


The only possible reason to bring it up which I can see is (unconsciously) making a semantic/logical confusion that "A person doesn't distinguish between adults and children about X" implies "A person doesn't distinguish between adults and children" (period). (Where "X" could be controversial like "aren't bothered by f-words in the presence of kids" or uncontroversial like "believing that eating well and exercising are good habits for adults and children".)


Cf.: "I eat pizza" indeed implies "I eat".
But "I don't eat pizza" does not similarly imply "I don't eat."

OK, sorry for the tangent, I'll shut up now.
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Larry Welborn
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russ wrote:
Phil Fleischmann wrote:
That was not at all my intent. Please don't take it personally.

OK, fair enough, I believe you.
Quote:
The subject can be broken down into two parts (at least):

1) Whether there is a difference between what is appropriate for adults and what is appropriate for children.

2) Which specific things, such as the f-word, are inappropriate for children.

You may well disagree with me on #2, while agreeing with me on #1. That doesn't make one childish.

My statement was only that if you disagree on #1, then you are *probably* childish.

OK, but again, I don't recall anyone in the thread falling into category #1, so I still don't see the point of even bringing up the case of people who won't/can't/don't/fail_to/whatever think there is a difference between what is appropriate for adults and what is appropriate for children.

It just seems like a confusing red herring since it doesn't apply to any of the people in the thread. ... But perhaps I missed or don't remember some such post, as admittedly the thread is long and has been spread out over a rather long time, lying dormant and then springing back to life.


The only possible reason to bring it up which I can see is (unconsciously) making a semantic/logical confusion that "A person doesn't distinguish between adults and children about X" implies "A person doesn't distinguish between adults and children" (period). (Where "X" could be controversial like "aren't bothered by f-words in the presence of kids" or uncontroversial like "believing that eating well and exercising are good habits for adults and children".)


Cf.: "I eat pizza" indeed implies "I eat".
But "I don't eat pizza" does not similarly imply "I don't eat."

OK, sorry for the tangent, I'll shut up now.


Russ, read the early part of the thread, especially page 2. I think at the very least you can infer that some of the posters, well maybe only one, falls into category 1.
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Me, sin? Pf! Nah! Chill
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I hope that's the case. And like I said, I may be misreading, but some people seem to have said that subject matter, theme, art, language used, etc., have or should have no bearing on whether a game is suitable for children, and that it's only about game mechanics.

To take that stance to it's logical conclusion, you'd have to say that Busen Memo is a family/children's game since its mechanic is nothing more than the very common children's game of concentration/memory.
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Russ Williams
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Hmm. Thanks for the pointer to page 2, but I'm still not seeing it - the early thread comments seem game-language-specific and very much category #2 to me. But it seems that I understood Phil to mean category #1 as a general statement (like I mentioned in my earlier comment's examples - i.e. not just about themes/language but people who don't distinguish adults and kids generally, not just in a context of theme/language suitability), and y'all mean it more as specifically about themes/language. So it's a semantic confusion circle, and I'm happy to just leave it at that instead of going round in further circles.
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Larry Welborn
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russ wrote:
Hmm. Thanks for the pointer to page 2, but I'm still not seeing it - the early thread comments seem game-language-specific and very much category #2 to me. But it seems that I understood Phil to mean category #1 as a general statement (like I mentioned in my earlier comment's examples - i.e. not just about themes/language but people who don't distinguish adults and kids generally, not just in a context of theme/language suitability), and y'all mean it more as specifically about themes/language. So it's a semantic confusion circle, and I'm happy to just leave it at that instead of going round in further circles.


Fair enough.
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Jacob Russell
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:

Busen Memo is a family/children's game since its mechanic is nothing more than the very common children's game of concentration/memory.


Ha, funny enough about the only time in my life I could imagine enjoying this game would be from ages 6-16. Not to say that it should be a kids game just that I think that's who it would appeal to most.

Besides... what's wrong with kids looking at boobs? Is it better for my ten year old boy to play the Nazi's in some WW2 game or better for him to match breasts to one another? Or what about Monopoly, is running a capitalistic venture until you own everything and have crushed everyone really a skill we should be teaching our children?

Theme's in childrens games can be very contentious. You never know what's going to offend someone.

Not that I would consider having my child play any of these games, just wondering.
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Randy Cox
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Funny. You say Busen Memo is 6-16. I think it's more like 12 or 13 up to, well, whenever a nerd-boy finally gets laid. :)

But, seriously, some things are just forbidden by most reasoning adults for purposes of their kids playtime. Some, but certainly not most, parents might think that playing a wargame depicting WWII is inappropriate. Most, but not quite all, will say that sitting around snickering at nekkid boobies is inappropriate. Hence, it would be best to have a poll pinpointing specific content alarms.
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Mike Jones
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
I hope that's the case. And like I said, I may be misreading, but some people seem to have said that subject matter, theme, art, language used, etc., have or should have no bearing on whether a game is suitable for children, and that it's only about game mechanics.

To take that stance to it's logical conclusion, you'd have to say that Busen Memo is a family/children's game since its mechanic is nothing more than the very common children's game of concentration/memory.


Or Manara Game Which in the case of the rules that came with the copy I have (not the ones posted in the description), you play in teams where you are just trying to 'guess' which card your partner is thinking about. If you match you keep the pair. Those with the most pairs win and play out their favorite 'sex scene'.

So, I guess from a mechanics perspective this should be a family game. I little bit of matching and charades. What's more family then that?
 
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Jacob Russell
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Randy Cox wrote:
Some, but certainly not most, parents might think that playing a wargame depicting WWII is inappropriate. Most, but not quite all, will say that sitting around snickering at nekkid boobies is inappropriate.


I agreed with the poll earlier. It's the only solution that makes sense.

I do think it's funny though that

Nazi's = probably ok

Boob = probably not ok

WOW, I am one backwards dude and never even knew it.

Personally I find explaining the appeal of boobs to a child pretty easy whereas explianing the horrors of Nazi Germany to an adult is very difficult.

But I guess 10 years of co-ed showers and tree planting changed my views on nudity more then I realized.
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Randy Cox
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JonJacob wrote:
But I guess 10 years of co-ed showers and tree planting changed my views on nudity more then I realized.
Yep. You're an outlier.

So, where can we go for these co-ed showers?
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Pawel Zawisza
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JonJacob wrote:

I do think it's funny though that

Nazi's = probably ok

Boob = probably not ok


It's very funny, esp. when you think that most kids below the age of 12 will not even look at boobs, or just look elsewhere with no dirty thoughts - the hormones are not yet at work, and most kids are simply not interested at all in opposite gender. Yet many countries in the world (I'm looking at you, US) go to great length to protect kids from seeing nakedness, while at the same time letting all the blood and gore pass on TV. In Olympos thread the discussion quickly turned to someone being uncomfortable of comic art on cards showing naked siren. I would be more concerned with expalaining the idea of Gods punishing players.
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Castor Krieg wrote:
It's very funny, esp. when you think that most kids below the age of 12 will not even look at boobs, or just look elsewhere with no dirty thoughts - the hormones are not yet at work, and most kids are simply not interested at all in opposite gender.

Do you have some sort of data that supports that, or are you speaking based on your personal memories? I for one was strongly interested several years earlier, and many friends who were just as interested as I was. Tried not to get caught looking, true, but that's a very different thing from lack of interest.
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Pawel Zawisza
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Sphere wrote:
Do you have some sort of data that supports that, or are you speaking based on your personal memories? I for one was strongly interested several years earlier, and many friends who were just as interested as I was. Tried not to get caught looking, true, but that's a very different thing from lack of interest.


I don't have a specific quote, but there's a lot of research done on the subject. There is a difference between developing gender identity, and developing sexually. The former starts at the age of 2 or 3, the latter around the age of 12.
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Randy Cox
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Castor Krieg wrote:
Sphere wrote:
Do you have some sort of data that supports that, or are you speaking based on your personal memories? I for one was strongly interested several years earlier, and many friends who were just as interested as I was. Tried not to get caught looking, true, but that's a very different thing from lack of interest.


I don't have a specific quote, but there's a lot of research done on the subject. There is a difference between developing gender identity, and developing sexually. The former starts at the age of 2 or 3, the latter around the age of 12.
However, the issue here is not a stray boob or whatnot. That's moderately easy to explain away to a 6-10 year old. But explaining why a "family game" can have "F*ck You" and "Bitches" as purportedly acceptable band names is another thing altogether. Has nothing to do with Nazis or mammaries. Has to do with language and whether it's appropriate for families.
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Pawel Zawisza
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Randy Cox wrote:
But explaining why a "family game" can have "F*ck You" and "Bitches" as purportedly acceptable band names is another thing altogether. Has nothing to do with Nazis or mammaries. Has to do with language and whether it's appropriate for families.


There is no such thing as "appropriate for families", it's all about people's sensibilities. If someone can explain nakedness, they can explain the names - just tell the kid it's an insult/curse/bad thing to say, that sometimes people will say. It's as easy as that. Not to mention the kid will probably hear it from his friends sooner or later.
 
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Castor Krieg wrote:
I don't have a specific quote, but there's a lot of research done on the subject. There is a difference between developing gender identity, and developing sexually. The former starts at the age of 2 or 3, the latter around the age of 12.

Physical development isn't a prerequisite for heightened awareness and interest.
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Randy Cox wrote:
However, the issue here is not a stray boob or whatnot. That's moderately easy to explain away to a 6-10 year old. But explaining why a "family game" can have "F*ck You" and "Bitches" as purportedly acceptable band names is another thing altogether. Has nothing to do with Nazis or mammaries. Has to do with language and whether it's appropriate for families.

I understand that. I'm not even sure why I clicked into this thread after all this time. I don't think there will ever be consensus on these issues; people vary too widely in their backgrounds and sensitivities.
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Just a quick historical note. Equating the German side of a WW2 game to Nazis is inaccurate. There were many Wehrmacht generals who fought for Germany, not the Nazis. A few of them even tried to assassinate Hitler...
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feldmafx wrote:
Just a quick historical note. Equating the German side of a WW2 game to Nazis is inaccurate. There were many Wehrmacht generals who fought for Germany, not the Nazis. A few of them even tried to assassinate Hitler...


Too bad "fighting for Germany" at that time meant fighting for the Nazi regime.

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My point is that playing a German general in a game does not equate to espousing Nazi beliefs. It is twice removed; you are playing a game, and you a playing a Wehrmacht officer.
 
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The point, however, is about assigning a game to the BGG-specific categories (known as "sub-domains"). In both cases, adult content and wargames, you wouldn't select "Family Game" as the best defining category. The wargame would go, I'm fairly confident, into the "Wargame" subdomain. It's a no-brainer. Nazis have nothing to do with it.
 
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László Pásti
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If somebody lived in Germany and was drafted, it doesn't mean that he was nazi.
 
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dantes wrote:
If somebody lived in Germany and was drafted, it doesn't mean that he was nazi.


Different discussion entirely.
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Yaboo wrote:
dantes wrote:
If somebody lived in Germany and was drafted, it doesn't mean that he was nazi.


Different discussion entirely.

Indeed that should be in the Wargames forum (where it seems to appear regularly) instead of the Family Games forum.
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russ wrote:
Yaboo wrote:
dantes wrote:
If somebody lived in Germany and was drafted, it doesn't mean that he was nazi.


Different discussion entirely.

Indeed that should be in the Wargames forum (where it seems to appear regularly) instead of the Family Games forum.


No it shouldn't.

I don't think anyone equates playing the WWII German side in a wargame to having Nazi sympathies, although I know some people who don't feel comfortable and won't do it.
 
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