Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Arkham Horror» Forums » Rules

Subject: Upkeep: Adjusting skill sliders and casting spells. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Pertti Perämies
Finland
flag msg tools
Upkeep goes like this according to the Arkham Horror rulebook:

1) Refresh Exhausted Cards
2) Perform Upkeep Actions
3) Adjust Skills

Should I cast spells in phase 2 or after phase 3? For example, Heal spell has to be cast during the upkeep. Another example is any spell which can be cast on any phase. Of course I would cast it when I have my Lore skill high. (Cast the spell before phase 3, if my Lore is high and I'm planning to add Luck skill this turn. Cast the spell after phase 3, if I have low Lore and I'm planning to increase it.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I suppose you mean "step" 2 or 3 (as phase 2 and 3 represent "movement" and "arkham encounters," respectively).

I would consider casting spells during upkeep the "upkeep actions" of step 2 listed above. But I don't think it really matters. If you would rather cast the spell then adjust your skills or adjust your skill then cast the spell should be ok.

The important part is that if you use it during Upkeep, you don't immediately refresh it in the same turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Refreshing is first. Moving your sliders is last. Everything else happens in between. You can not move your sliders and then cast an upkeep spell.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
Refreshing is first. Moving your sliders is last. Everything else happens in between. You can not move your sliders and then cast an upkeep spell.

Can you point to something definitive that supports this? I am not aware of anything that limits this.

My only argument is it's not refreshing and not adjusting, so it falls into the gray area in between. But even Upkeep Actions are specific to things like rolling for curses, etc.

So really, nothing is spelled out in the rules one way or the other. I was just curious if you knew of an answer that existed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's just the rule? Casting a spell is an upkeep action. It certainly isn't refreshing a card or adjusting your skills. Healing stone, Voice of Ra, and Curse have the exact same Upkeep keyword on the cards saying when to do them. The only real difference is that spells are explicitly optional, unlike bless/curse rolls.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
It's just the rule? Casting a spell is an upkeep action. It certainly isn't refreshing a card or adjusting your skills. Healing stone, Voice of Ra, and Curse have the exact same Upkeep keyword on the cards saying when to do them. The only real difference is that spells are explicitly optional, unlike bless/curse rolls.

That's my point - Spells are optional. The rule is quite clear that you MUST do Upkeep actions. So spells aren't necessarily "upkeep actions" yet they "upkeep" ones can be done during the phase.

Quote:
2. Perform Upkeep Actions
After refreshing his exhausted cards, each player must
review his investigator’s cards to see if any of them
have an Upkeep action. Each player must perform all
Upkeep actions
listed on his investigator’s cards every
turn. Upkeep actions may be taken in any order the player
wishes. Bless, Curse, Bank Loan, and Retainer cards
do not require an upkeep roll during the first Upkeep
Phase after an investigator acquires them.


The point is the rules don't say anything about spells. So while I am inclined to say it happens after refresh and before skill sliding, I am not sure. I don't have any ruling to lean on. But then again, I have never had an issue with it. We just automatically refresh to kick off the turn but I think I would allow Spells to be cast after sliding the skills.

BTW, not trying to argue with you (in case it is coming off that way). It is just a question I really don't know the answer to so trying to talk it out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You still have to do the upkeep action on the spell, but the action is to choose to cast the spell or not. Honestly, there's plenty of things that are weird and vague about the timing rules, but I just don't see this as one of them. The only reason that spells and healing stone and so on are optional is because the upkeep action itself says 'may.' The 'may' makes them an exception to the 'must' rule, but why should they be an exception to the rest of the timing rules?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
You still have to do the upkeep action on the spell, but the action is to choose to cast the spell or not. Honestly, there's plenty of things that are weird and vague about the timing rules, but I just don't see this as one of them. The only reason that spells and healing stone and so on are optional is because the upkeep action itself says 'may.' The 'may' makes them an exception to the 'must' rule, but why should they be an exception to the rest of the timing rules?

Becuase the time rules are refering to 3 things - refresh, actual actions - like rolling to keep curses and retainers and such, and skill sliders. What I am saying is nothing on these cards are saying they fall into any specific step. Their only requirement is that they are done during the phase.

So actually, taken literally, they could be done before refreshing or after sliders. I don't see how there is an "exception" when we don't have a hard fast rule on when to use them.

If anything, the "precedence" is to allow it anytime during the phase. You don't limit Movement spells to a specific step. The only restrictions there is if you are waiting for something specific, like a Horror check or lose of stamina. But otherwise, you can cast them before you move or after you move.

So I just don't see it as a restriction. Upkeep Action is something very specific and not linked to actual spell casting.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:

So I just don't see it as a restriction. Upkeep Action is something very specific and not linked to actual spell casting.


Look at the cards! The upkeep part of Curse is written exactly the same way as the upkeep part of Voice of Ra. Claiming that they are somehow different is the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence. In the absence of errata saying that two things that are the same are different things, the default stance should be to follow the rules as best you can, not to just shrug and say 'whatever.' That way madness lies.


Here, let's do a better analogy than the movement phase, since the movement phase isn't broken up into subphases and thus is a pointless comparison. Let's look at the Mythos phase. In the Mythos phase, monsters move at a very specific time in the phase sequence. Green-bordered monsters don't actually move. Since they're not moving, you just activate them at any old time in the mythos phase, right? No, of course not, you still follow the rules as closely as you can.

It's the same here. Even though upkeep spells aren't mandatory, they're still actions you take during upkeep, some sort of upkeep action, if you will. They happen at the same time as all the other upkeep actions.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Look at the rules! They say nothing about Spells during Upkeep. They list out the actions, which are all mandatory and all require a die roll, to see if they are kept or not. It says Bank Loans, Blessing, Curses, and Retainers. No "etc." no "and so on" no "such as" They are very specific to thes four cards. If you through Spells in there, then you MUST, byt the letter of the law, attmept each and every Spell you have: "Each player must perform all Upkeep actions listed on his investigator’s cards every turn."

Green border monsters "move" - they just perform an action instead of physically moving. It is still the "movement" step triggering them. Much like the Upkeep Action step is triggering Curses and such. But again, Spells are not mandatory. So we just go around in circles.

I think this needs to go upstairs. I am just not finding the argument convincing enough to say it is absolute.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Siu Kee Lee
Singapore
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
For me, I just tend to allow investigators to choose their order of resolving upkeep spells, blessing/curse/retainers and skill sliders.

In fact, I only know now that upkeep actions come before slider. However, restricting spells to before skill sliders means that spell casters must set their Lore during the previous action, which is slightly contradictory to the fact that Upkeep is the first phase of a new turn.

Of course, this means Blessings/Curses could be exploited when casting, say, Arcane Insight (I cast AI before rolling for Blessing/ I cast AI after rolling for Curses).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Look at the rules!


OK. The rules also clearly say that adjusting the skill sliders is the last thing you do. So once you've moved your sliders, your upkeep is over and it's not time to cast upkeep spells anymore.

Seriously, I grant that it doesn't spell things out in super crystal clear language, but my way doesn't involve willfully ignoring any rules or making exceptions out of things that there's no reason to consider exceptions. Allowing spells during upkeep but after moving sliders is just making up a rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Anderson
United States
Moorhead
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
OK. The rules also clearly say that adjusting the skill sliders is the last thing you do. So once you've moved your sliders, your upkeep is over and it's not time to cast upkeep spells anymore.
But it doesn't literally say that you can't do anything in upkeep after you adjust your skill sliders. It's just the last thing on that little list, but there's nothing that says the list is inclusive of all the possible things you can do during upkeep.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
But there's nothing in the list of upkeep actions that says those are the only upkeep actions! And if you look at the cards it's obvious that rolling for curses and using healing stone and casting upkeep spells are all the same category of thing because they're all written the same way, with the same phase keyword.
You guys are driving me crazy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Redford
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Chipacabra wrote:
It's just the rule? Casting a spell is an upkeep action. It certainly isn't refreshing a card or adjusting your skills. Healing stone, Voice of Ra, and Curse have the exact same Upkeep keyword on the cards saying when to do them. The only real difference is that spells are explicitly optional, unlike bless/curse rolls.

That's my point - Spells are optional. The rule is quite clear that you MUST do Upkeep actions. So spells aren't necessarily "upkeep actions" yet they "upkeep" ones can be done during the phase.

Quote:
2. Perform Upkeep Actions
After refreshing his exhausted cards, each player must
review his investigator’s cards to see if any of them
have an Upkeep action. Each player must perform all
Upkeep actions
listed on his investigator’s cards every
turn. Upkeep actions may be taken in any order the player
wishes. Bless, Curse, Bank Loan, and Retainer cards
do not require an upkeep roll during the first Upkeep
Phase after an investigator acquires them.


The point is the rules don't say anything about spells. So while I am inclined to say it happens after refresh and before skill sliding, I am not sure. I don't have any ruling to lean on. But then again, I have never had an issue with it. We just automatically refresh to kick off the turn but I think I would allow Spells to be cast after sliding the skills.

BTW, not trying to argue with you (in case it is coming off that way). It is just a question I really don't know the answer to so trying to talk it out.


I have to agree with David (Chipacabra) here. The rules say ALL upkeep actions must be taken. It does NOT mention just bank loans, retainers, blessings and curses. The only thing it mentions them for specifically is to say they are not rolled for on the first turn after aquiring them.

Also, this does not mean all upkeep spells are cast every upkeep phase. Those spells (I specifically checked Heal and Voice of Ra, I'm guessing the others are the same) all say MAY cast and exhaust. So while ALL upkeep actions must be taken in any order, the action of a spell is choosing or not choosing to cast (hence the MAY). So as you see, there is no optional upkeep cards, the option is in the phrasing of the upkeep action itself. So all spells would have to be done in this segment before moving sliders.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Anderson
United States
Moorhead
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Chipacabra wrote:
And if you look at the cards it's obvious that rolling for curses and using healing stone and casting upkeep spells are all the same category of thing because they're all written the same way, with the same phase keyword.
It's not obvious, because of this sentence in the rules: "Each player must perform all Upkeep actions listed on his investigator's cards every turn." I assume you don't play that you're forced to cast all Upkeep phase spells every turn, so that sentence is what calls into question whether spells count as "Upkeep actions" or not.

I do think you may be right, but because of that pesky sentence I don't think it's as obvious as you think it is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Redford
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Must perform is correct, whereas the action for spells and healing stone is deciding to use or not use it. But you still must decide in the upkeep segment.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John Anderson
United States
Moorhead
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
You're making sense, but it seems very counter-intuitive to have to set your sliders after casting spells. I thought you were setting the sliders to where you want them for that whole turn, so why would upkeep spells be excepted from that? Why would upkeep spells use your slider positions from last turn?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Spells are always awkward, confusing, and madness inducing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike R
United States
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I don't entirely understand the point of long, involved rules arguments for Arkham Horror. Sure, I like to play correctly, but it's a cooperative game, so if you encounter some weird situation, your group can resolve it however you want! Who cares?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Redford
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't want an asterik next to my win because we played something wrong. Especially when it's in the rules. When I take down an Ancient One, I want to know it was all done the way it was supposed to be, not that I watered it down to make it easier, no matter how trivial it seems.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DoomTurtle wrote:
I don't want an asterik next to my win because we played something wrong. Especially when it's in the rules. When I take down an Ancient One, I want to know it was all done the way it was supposed to be, not that I watered it down to make it easier, no matter how trivial it seems.

I can at least agree with you on that one!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Bell
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Playing correctly is a totally valid desire. Ideally, we could hammer out the rules to the extent that any of us could meet at a random convention and play with strangers, and we'd all be in agreement with what the rules are.
At least FFG never tries to claim the opposite, that sloppy rules that require houserules to even be able to play are a good thing. I'm looking at you, GW. angry
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Duff
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, I'll wade into this one, since it's not ending.

The wording on all spells refers to the phases in which they must be cast.
Flesh Ward: "Any Phase".
Find Gate: "Movement" (which is a phase) .
Heal: "Upkeep" (again, the name of a phase).

I think there's a difference between "Upkeep" phase on a spell which is optional, and "Upkeep Actions" on items, which are must do's.

I think you can cast a spell at any time in the proper phase.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
I think there's a difference between "Upkeep" phase on a spell which is optional, and "Upkeep Actions" on items, which are must do's.

I think you can cast a spell at any time in the proper phase.

Agreed. Which is why I don't think we are making any unreasonable assumptions with our interpretation. I don't think it is a clear as David makes it seem and I think the other side of the argument is twisting just as much to make it fit in the rules as written.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.