I wonder if the effect of Quarry stacks with itself. I know it doesn't stack if you play it using Throne Room or Royal Chamber, but if you actually have two copies of Quarry in play, do Action cards cost 4 less?

EDIT: On the face of it, Quarry seems a little powerful in general. I realize Action cards aren't everything, but Quarry is a card that costs 4, doesn't require an Action to play, and essentially gives you +2 coins for each Action card you buy that turn. Does that strike anyone else as a bit extreme?

I'd really love to hear about the new rules for how Treasures are played and whether they discuss Black Market specifically.

I'm also surprised to see a new Throne Room card. I seem to recall there were regrets for introducing the original after all the extra work it created in play testing each new set.

I just realized a shocking fact. You can now Swindle Provinces into Peddlers...

I'm obviously missing something. If they are 'just' VPs and treasure, why can't they always be available, even when there are no prosperity cards out? Is prosperity so weighted to huge amounts of dosh floating around that you need them there, but not elsewhere? If so, doesn't that kinda imply that the prosperity cards are unbalanced/too powerful when played with cards from other sets?

Well they change the game. Obv. it takes longer to build up to making $11 than it does to build up to making $8, even with Platinum there to help you, but like, just the possibility of going for those cards makes some kingdom cards better and others worse. There's more variety to the game if you don't always have those effects.

Then too, people are used to the expansions adding variety in a particular way. When Counting House is on the table, the game is different in whatever ways; the rest of the time, Counting House isn't there. Other things are warping the game instead. If Colony and Platinum were always on the table once you bought Prosperity, they would stop adding variety, and instead just be a change to the game. They would be the only thing like that; everything else in the expansions is just there when it's there.

Personally I thought it was important, not just to only have Platinum and Colony in some games, but also to provide a method for determining when to use them that was satisfying, so that people used it. Obv. you're free to always use them if you want; my bet is, after your initial all-Prosperity games, it will be more fun to only sometimes have them. Then those games get that extra dose of excitement from having Colony and Platinum available, rather than just being more of the same.

Yes, with two copies of Quarry in play, Action cards cost 4 less.

As for whether Quarry is too powerful, it's worth observing that it doesn't help you get Gold or Provinces. A ton of Actions may be fun but where are your points coming from?

The order they were drawn doesn't really matter, it's just a handy method for getting the desired distribution when working with the physical randomizers. You could just roll a virtual d10 and add them to the list if it comes up with a number less than or equal to the number of Prosperity cards.

That won't correctly simulate the likelihood of drawing a Prosperity card on the first draw. It will depend on the total number of cards in your randomizer pile.

If you use all the cards (something like 104 or thereabout) then the odds of drawing a Prosperity first are approximately 24%, regardless of how many of the ten end up coming from Prosperity.

If you have just the base set and Prosperity, then you'll have exactly a 50% chance of drawing a Prosperity card first, also independent of how many end up being from Prosperity.

I can't tell exactly what you're saying but I think you're misunderstanding the probabilities. They're confusing because they're all conditional.

For example, if you're playing with base + prosperity:

The chances of adding Platinum/Colony are 50% for any given set, even if that set is 9/10 prosperity.

The chances of that 9/10 set having Platinum/Colony is still 90% though, because of the different possible ways you can end up drawing it.

With just the base set and Prosperity, there is EXACTLY a 50% chance of drawing a Prosperity card first regardless of how many end up in the game.

If you played that exact same set every time, then yes, there's a 90% chance that you'll draw a Prosperity card first. But each set of cards is chosen independently (unless you intentionally leave some cards out or agree to re-use some). In that case, It is ONLY the first card that matters; what happens after that, regardless of how many are from Prosperity has NO EFFECT on whether or not to use Platinum/Colony.

With just the base set and Prosperity, there is EXACTLY a 50% chance of drawing a Prosperity card first regardless of how many end up in the game.

Like I said I still don't know what you're trying to say. You quoted someone who was correct and said they were wrong, but your recent post only has a collection of true statements, it doesn't say why. Nor are you apparently disagreeing with anything I said?

OK.. then for people who pick cards randomly from an app, the list can still be sorted, just accompanied by a roll of 1d10 for the Big Cards. Fair enough.

You could just roll a virtual d10 and add them to the list if it comes up with a number less than or equal to the number of Prosperity cards.

The chances of that 9/10 set having Platinum/Colony is still 90% though, because of the different possible ways you can end up drawing it.

If you played that exact same set every time, then yes, there's a 90% chance that you'll draw a Prosperity card first.

If you do all the math, it turns out it actually IS the same. A d10 has an equal chance of picking any of the 10 cards, and each of those 10 cards has a 50% chance of being a Prosperity card, so you end up with a 50% chance total of rolling a prosperity card.

Look at it another way: For every time that you draw 9 prosperity cards and have a 90% chance of rolling prosperity, you were just as likely to only draw 1 prosperity card and have a 10% chance of rolling prosperity. It evens out.

Look at it another way: There's nothing special about the first card you draw. If you said that it's the last card you draw that matters, the odds don't change at all. Or if you say it's the third card you draw. Or if, in fact, you just roll a die to decide which card matters.

Where you're getting caught up is that looking at the 10 cards seems to change the odds, and it sort of does, but ONLY for that one game. You have to take all the randomness into account. Otherwise, you can say that you have a 100% chance of playing a prosperity card each time your first card is prosperity. It's true, but it's also irrelevant to the actual question at hand.

You know. Let's say you just own Dominion and Prosperity. Half of your cards are from Prosperity. How often should you play with Platinum/Colony? Man, I don't know, how about half the time? That sounds good.

But let's say you own 5 full sets of roughly 25 cards each, including Prosperity. Now Prosperity is about 1/5 of your cards. How often should you play with Platinum/Colony? Maybe 1/5 of the time? They are part of the Prosperity experience. An experience you are having at 1/5 the rate of pure Prosperity.

IMHO, it *does* matter if you're trying to play quick game. Playing treasures individually in the standard game slows things down a lot compared to a house rule of playing them all together.

Hmmmm, that might be a better way to look at it!

So, it true that there is a 50% chance that ANY randomly chosen set will use the big cards, but 10*P% chance that a specific set with P prosperity cards will use the big cards. I see where I went wrong now.

Perhaps I should get more learnin' in probability theory...

The 10% * Number of Prosperity cards is also a better way because you don't actually need to select your kingdom cards completely randomly. If you decide you always want a mix of 7 prosperity cards and 3 base set cards, using the "first" card selected doesn't make any sense. But its recommended that you use Platinum/Colony in 70% of these games, so the d10 saves the day. You can also veto cards and replace them with cards from other sets and as long as you don't roll the die until you have a prosperity vs non-prosperity count you'll still get the right odds. Also, if you decide for some reason you want to play 10 games with the SAME set of 6 Prosperity cards and 4 base cards, its recommended that you use Platinum/Colony in 6 of the games, even though there's no choosing cards at all at that point.

I just realized a shocking fact. You can now Swindle Provinces into Peddlers...

About the Loan. It is limited, yes, but think of it with a few Alchemy cards in the setup. It'll be an excellent way to get rid of the Potion without much effort. It also helps to get rid of Coppers with lack of any other trasher, aswell as cycling the deck a bit.

Actually (and happily), you CAN'T Swindle Provinces into Peddlers, because of Peddler's effect. It's cost is reduced by 2 because you played an action card (Swindler).

Interestingly enough, this can act as a solid counter to Saboteur.

Personally I thought it was important, not just to only have Platinum and Colony in some games, but also to provide a method for determining when to use them that was satisfying, so that people used it. Obv. you're free to always use them if you want; my bet is, after your initial all-Prosperity games, it will be more fun to only sometimes have them. Then those games get that extra dose of excitement from having Colony and Platinum available, rather than just being more of the same.

Actually (and happily), you CAN'T Swindle Provinces into Peddlers, because of Peddler's effect. It's cost is reduced by 2 because you played an action card (Swindler). Thus, you can only Swindle 6 costs (or less, if you played more actions) into Peddlers.

Interestingly enough, this can act as a solid counter to Saboteur. If I've got a lot of +Action cards which eventually led me to a Saboteur, I may have reduced the cost of Peddlers to 0 (it would take 4 or more action cards). My opponents would then be able to replace whatever was Sabotaged with a 0-cost Peddler!!! Ha! Serves the dirty Saboteur right.

Anyone disagree with me that this looks like the best expansion yet? :)

It's not in the secret history, so I will cover it here.

The actual method was Valerie's suggestion. Early on I tried things like, play with Platinum/Colony if any kingdom card costs $6 or more. That was way off from what I wanted, which was to see Platinum/Colony about as often as you see the rest of the set.

You know. Let's say you just own Dominion and Prosperity. Half of your cards are from Prosperity. How often should you play with Platinum/Colony? Man, I don't know, how about half the time? That sounds good.

But let's say you own 5 full sets of roughly 25 cards each, including Prosperity. Now Prosperity is about 1/5 of your cards. How often should you play with Platinum/Colony? Maybe 1/5 of the time? They are part of the Prosperity experience. An experience you are having at 1/5 the rate of pure Prosperity.

Going by the first randomizer card turned over (or first replacement if you keep some out) neatly matches the perfect ratio. In all Prosperity games you always have Platinum/Colony. When Prosperity cards are not showing up as often in your mix, neither are Platinum/Colony.