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Subject: Finnish troops rss

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Walter Newton
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Austin
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In the SK#1 forum there was a post recently questioning the relatively high firepower of American 1st Line squads (6FP w/Assault Fire capability), which was explained as generally representing the inherent advantage provided by the semiauto M1 Garands and/or BARs used by the Americans compared to the bolt action rifles still used by most other nations.

Reviewing the ASL National Capabilities Chart, it seems like the strongest nationality is the Finns - Self Rallying/Deploying/Recombining, No Cowering, Stealthy; with Assault Firing, Spray Firing, 5 ELR Elite 8-3-8s matched in BPV only by USMC 7-6-8s (not to mention Green 5-3-8s with BPV greater than than Elite Russians, French, or Italians; and close to or surpassing some Elite or 1st Line US, British, and German units).

I realize it's just a game, of course - but I wonder if there are historical justifications for what seems to be incredible capability of ASL's Finnish units in terms of armament, training, etc?



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Mark McG
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walternewton wrote:


I realize it's just a game, of course - but I wonder if there are historical justifications for what seems to be incredible capability of ASL's Finnish units in terms of armament, training, etc?





Yes and no..

The Finns historically outfought the Russians in both the Winter War and the Continuation War, and this primarily came down to good small unit tactics, committed Finn soldiers defending their homeland, and to a certain extent the excellent Suomi submachine gun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suomi_KP/-31

That being said, there is a view in the ASL player community that the Finns are supermen, and no fun to play against. So there is a "last" official module "Hakkaa Päälle" that will reissue the Finns.
There is likely to be some better news about this on this BGG Forum, since I can't recall exactly what sort of values the Finn MMC were getting.
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Jay Richardson
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Lindsborg
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In the 1939 battle of Soumussalmi, an attack by two Soviet divisions was countered first by local Finnish militia, and then by elements of a single Finnish division. Both Soviet divisions were destroyed, and all of their equipment was captured. The Russians suffered nearly 30,000 casualties; Finnish casualties were less than 3,000.

Keep in mind, however, that ASL squad ratings are not always universal. ASL depicts the Finns as they defended their homeland against unprovoked foreign aggression. Had a Finnish division been fighting alongside the Germans at Stalingrad or Kursk – a situation in which Finnish soldiers would have been fighting hundreds of miles from home, in unfamiliar territory, in non-Arctic conditions, in a battle whose outcome would not directly affect Finland – they would not have been nearly as effective as ASL currently depicts them.
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Seth Owen
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richfam wrote:
In the 1939 battle of Soumussalmi, an attack by two Soviet divisions was countered first by local Finnish militia, and then by elements of a single Finnish division. Both Soviet divisions were destroyed, and all of their equipment was captured. The Russians suffered nearly 30,000 casualties; Finnish casualties were less than 3,000.

Keep in mind, however, that ASL squad ratings are not always universal. ASL depicts the Finns as they defended their homeland against unprovoked foreign aggression. Had a Finnish division been fighting alongside the Germans at Stalingrad or Kursk – a situation in which Finnish soldiers would have been fighting hundreds of miles from home, in unfamiliar territory, in non-Arctic conditions, in a battle whose outcome would not directly affect Finland – they would not have been nearly as effective as ASL currently depicts them.


And in those circumstances they would probably be represented by regular German squads instead of the "Finnish ones. There's precedent in the game system for troops nominally of one sort being represented for scenario purposes by different squads to better represent their ability in a particular fight.
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Robin REEVE
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The best reason of the high FP of the Finns is that it reflects an "inherent 8-1 leader".
As a -1 DRM is about equal to a one column shift to the left, this can explain the 6 FP rather than the expected 4.
Finnish leaders don't haved a leadership better than -1, which adds credit to that interpretation of the high squad FP.

Now, Hakka Paäle will offer additional, more conventional, Finnish squads - adapted to the continuation war situation.
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J. R. Tracy
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Mark wrote:

That being said, there is a view in the ASL player community that the Finns are supermen, and no fun to play against. So there is a "last" official module "Hakkaa Päälle" that will reissue the Finns.
There is likely to be some better news about this on this BGG Forum, since I can't recall exactly what sort of values the Finn MMC were getting.


As Mark says, HP dials down the Finns a bit, introducing some new squad types (a 548 first-liner, a 447 second liner, and 437 conscripts). The supermen still show up but the troop mix in the HP scenarios is a little more down to earth than what you see in the Beyond Valor Finnish scenarios, and as a result more interesting in my opinion.

JR

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Jay Richardson
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Mark McG wrote:
So there is a "last" official module "Hakkaa Päälle" that will reissue the Finns.
There is likely to be some better news about this on this BGG Forum, since I can't recall exactly what sort of values the Finn MMC were getting.

There's a nice 2-page preview of Hakkaa Päälle in the current ASL Journal 8. The new infantry units are: 5-4-8 1st Line, 4-4-7 2nd Line, 4-3-7 Conscript (no self-rally), and a 8+1 Leader.
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Lee Massey
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Jay, Any idea when they will put this up for pre-order? ninja
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Jay Richardson
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Lee Massey wrote:
Any idea when they will put this up for pre-order? ninja

In an update posted on 27 May 2010 on CSW, MMP's Chas Argent stated that Hakkaa Päälle was: "In layout, while the last of the scenarios are in play test."
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