I will not rest until Biblios is in the Top 100.
United States
Budd Lake
New Jersey
Well I been watchin' while you been coughin, I've been drinking life while you've been nauseous, and so I drink to health while you kill yourself and I got just one thing that I can offer... Go on and save yourself and take it out on me
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Anytime you win a trick, you take the cards, right? So what incentive does the bottle owner have to keep the bottle? Wouldn't it be best to give the bottle away and then just win tricks?
I think I'll stick to Trump, Tricks, and Game. Bottle Imp is a bit confusing.
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Drew
United States
Eau Claire
Wisconsin
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To put it another way, if you trump, you GET the bottle, and you are stuck with it until someone else trumps. Since trumping (obviously) helps you take tricks, you kinda end up with the bottle at some point if you're playing to win.
So you don't keep the bottle to win tricks; you are stuck with the bottle if you trump.
Does that perspective help?
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Mike Adams
United States
Brigham City
Utah
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A big part of the game, the part that makes it interesting and different from other trick-taking games, is trying to avoid the bottle. Early on it can be advantageous to take the bottle in order to get the points for winning the trick with low cards, but ultimately you want to give it away and still win tricks. That's what you're trying to do. But sometimes it's harder to give it away and keep it away from you than you might like.
It's really a fun game, particularly with 3 players.
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Jeff Mays
United States
Cincinnati
Ohio
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If I understand the rules correctly (and I am going just by the rules, as I have not played the game yet), the highest card wins the trick unless someone plays a card lower than the Bottle Imp trick (in which case the player playing the card closest to the Bottle Imp, but under it, so if Bottle Imp = 19, a 15 would trump a 37, but a 17 would beat the 15).
So, the key is trying to win tricks early, by winning the Bottle Imp, but still being able to rid yourself of the blasted thing before it is too late. If I understand it right.
Wow, even trying to explain it is confusing. 
Okay, I know it's a goofy suggestion, but read the short story in "Islands Night's Entertainment" by Robert Louis Stevenson and it will all make sense. And even if you still don't want to play the game, it's a great short story. 
(EDIT: Link failure.  It can be found on Google Books). 
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Huzonfirst
United States
Manassas
Virginia
San Antonio, OKC, Miami, and Boston..who will win out?
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Bottle Imp (along with Schnappchen Jagd) is the greatest three-player trick-taker evar, Steve. But it takes quite a while to wrap your head around it. Well worth it, though.
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John McGeehan
United States
Washington
District of Columbia
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Early on it is to your advantage to take the bottle - I love being dealt cards in the mid to high teens, for example, because they can win early tricks for you, and it's almost inevitable that someone has a card lower than those that they will have to, at some point, play.
Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with. Likewise, if you have the 1/2/3, look for every opportunity possible where someone trumps with a high number so you can discard that card onto the trick, or you will end up at the last trick staring at the 1 in your hand knowing the bottle is yours.
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Chief EGG Head
United States
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One of my fav card games for 3. If you are having trouble with the concept play a few rounds here http://www.onlinebrettspiele.de/flaschenteufel/ it's free
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Drew
United States
Eau Claire
Wisconsin
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GrrBlarg wrote: If I understand the rules correctly (and I am going just by the rules, as I have not played the game yet), the highest card wins the trick unless someone plays a card lower than the Bottle Imp trick (in which case the player playing the card closest to the Bottle Imp, but under it, so if Bottle Imp = 19, a 15 would trump a 37, but a 17 would beat the 15).
That is correct. So when you see someone trumping with, say, a 12 (Yellow), that would be the time to dump the 1, 2, or 3 you have in your hand. 
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I will not rest until Biblios is in the Top 100.
United States
Budd Lake
New Jersey
Well I been watchin' while you been coughin, I've been drinking life while you've been nauseous, and so I drink to health while you kill yourself and I got just one thing that I can offer... Go on and save yourself and take it out on me
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Thanks guys. I see what you are all saying, but I think it would be so much better if you could only win a trick if you had the bottle.
Oh well, it was worth the shot for $10. They can't all be awesome.
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Ben Stanley
United States
Pleasant Grove
Utah
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stormseeker75 wrote: They can't all be awesome.
They can't all be awesome, but Bottle Imp is quite possibly the single most awesome game in the category of trick-taking. Don't give up on it. Get someone who has played it to teach it to you: they don't get more interesting, strategic, or thematic than Bottle Imp.
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Mattwran
United States
East Longmeadow
Massachusetts
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stormseeker75 wrote: Thanks guys. I see what you are all saying, but I think it would be so much better if you could only win a trick if you had the bottle.
Then how would anyone get the bottle in the first place? And once someone had it wouldn't they then take all the rest of the tricks? Bottle Imp as is is amazing. Give it another shot.
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Edward Jamer
Canada
Fredericton
NB
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stormseeker75 wrote: Thanks guys. I see what you are all saying, but I think it would be so much better if you could only win a trick if you had the bottle.
Oh well, it was worth the shot for $10. They can't all be awesome.
Your posts so far make it sound like you haven't played the game at all - is that accurate? Why dismiss a game so quickly when you clearly don't have a good grasp on gameplay?
Try playing a couple rounds before passing judgment.
I don't think that Bottle Imp is amazing, but it is a very solid game. Do you play trump early and take on the bottle hoping to get rid of it later, or avoid the bottle and accept a lower score? How do you deal with trump cards in your hand, to prevent getting stuck with the bottle? Conversely, how do you target other players to keep the bottle? The odd card distribution, variable number of trump cards each round, and ability to affect how other players score all have a huge effect on the game.
Edit: Also, your suggestion of only winning tricks when you own the bottle doesn't make sense to me on a thematic or gameplay level. Why do you think that would make a better game?
My feeling is that:
* Thematically it doesn't work because wealth and success don't require the Bottle Imp in the short story. The temptation of quickly and easily improving your status while planning to sell the bottle before it's too late is what makes the bottle attractive in the story (with a similar effect in gameplay).
* For gameplay, only allowing people to capture tricks when they own the bottle would slow down scoring dramatically and turn the game into a race for the penultimate trump. (This sometimes happens anyway, especially with new or poor players.) Changing a strategic game with a reasonable amount of player control into a simple guessing game doesn't sound like an improvement... but maybe I'm missing the point?
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Jeff Mays
United States
Cincinnati
Ohio
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lorna wrote:
Thanks for the link! After playing a few games, I have definitely got to buy this. Great game! I think this one might be right up there with Haggis for me... which, in turn, is right up there with Hearts. 
(Hmmmmmmmm... never realized how much I liked card games.) 
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Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
"Don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church."
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Tarrant wrote: Early on it is to your advantage to take the bottle - I love being dealt cards in the mid to high teens, for example, because they can win early tricks for you, and it's almost inevitable that someone has a card lower than those that they will have to, at some point, play.
Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with. Likewise, if you have the 1/2/3, look for every opportunity possible where someone trumps with a high number so you can discard that card onto the trick, or you will end up at the last trick staring at the 1 in your hand knowing the bottle is yours.
The longer you play the more things come out, and I'm convinced I haven't uncovered some of the games complexity even yet! If you know a player has a lower trump card than you (ie - you gave the player to your left the 2 at the beginning of the hand which hasn't come out yet), then you're safe to trump in with the 4 to take the trick AND the bottle - because you know the 2 will have to take a trick and get the bottle back. No other game requires you to be so aware of what cards have already been played. Low cards dumped beneath the bottle can really mess you up!
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Brad N
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
There are 7 games I want to play by June 30th, 2012
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When I read the Z-Man rules, the rules of the game made perfect sense. But, I have to say that I find the use of the word "trump" in this forum a bit confusing. I guess in the Bottle Imp, "trump" means a card closer to the bottle without going over. But, in traditional card games, "trump" usually means a particular suit. Just wanted to make note of this in case anyone else was confused by the use of the word "trump."
Tarrant wrote: Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with.
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Michael Hines
United States
Perry
Georgia
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I do not usually like trick taking games, but Bottle Imp is awesome. It is true that it shines with 3 players.
stormseeker75 wrote: Thanks guys. I see what you are all saying, but I think it would be so much better if you could only win a trick if you had the bottle.
Oh well, it was worth the shot for $10. They can't all be awesome.
Please post back here after you play a few games. I would like to hear your thoughts.
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Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
"Don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church."
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bnordeng wrote: When I read the Z-Man rules, the rules of the game made perfect sense. But, I have to say that I find the use of the word "trump" in this forum a bit confusing. I guess in the Bottle Imp, "trump" means a card closer to the bottle without going over. But, in traditional card games, "trump" usually means a particular suit. Just wanted to make note of this in case anyone else was confused by the use of the word "trump." Tarrant wrote: Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with.
The word "trump" is the easiest way to teach Flaschenteufel. The concept of trump means cards which overpower other cards in the deck. In this game, trump means any cards below the current bottle price. This means that if the bottle price is 19 (its starting value), the 18 is the highest card in the deck, and will overpower the 37 (the highest numbered card in the deck). Its not that complicated, but I've heard the same complaint before, and it is true in most games trump refers to one suit, whereas in this game trump refers to cards below a certain value (the bottle price) which complies with the theme of the game as it fits the story by RLS.
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Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
"Don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church."
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Drew1365 wrote: To put it another way, if you trump, you GET the bottle, and you are stuck with it until someone else trumps. Since trumping (obviously) helps you take tricks, you kinda end up with the bottle at some point if you're playing to win.
So you don't keep the bottle to win tricks; you are stuck with the bottle if you trump.
Does that perspective help?
Another way of looking at this is that the only way of taking tricks without getting the bottle is if no cards below the current bottle price (call them trump cards) are played, which you can't count on. So, if you can trump in and take the bottle to get some points, as long as you can get rid of the bottle before the end of the hand, then that's a good thing. Surely, if no trump are played and you have a higher card then taking the trick without the bottle is the thing to do.
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Brad N
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
There are 7 games I want to play by June 30th, 2012
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I do understand the concept of trump being simply cards that win the trick. In the case of Bottle Imp, it includes cards lower than but closest to the current price. However, I respectfully disagree that it is the easiest way to teach the game. When I say the word trump, most people I know think of trump as a suit as it is in almost every traditional card game that uses trump. While that may not be reality, it is their perception which is what is important. Rather than saying that trump is cards lower than but closest to the current price. I just say that the card played which is lower than but closest to the current price wins and everyone gets it right away. If I say trump, they get confused.
This is just my experience and I say you should use whatever works for you. The word "trump" doesn't work for me when explaining this game.
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tmredden wrote: Tarrant wrote: Early on it is to your advantage to take the bottle - I love being dealt cards in the mid to high teens, for example, because they can win early tricks for you, and it's almost inevitable that someone has a card lower than those that they will have to, at some point, play.
Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with. Likewise, if you have the 1/2/3, look for every opportunity possible where someone trumps with a high number so you can discard that card onto the trick, or you will end up at the last trick staring at the 1 in your hand knowing the bottle is yours. The longer you play the more things come out, and I'm convinced I haven't uncovered some of the games complexity even yet! If you know a player has a lower trump card than you (ie - you gave the player to your left the 2 at the beginning of the hand which hasn't come out yet), then you're safe to trump in with the 4 to take the trick AND the bottle - because you know the 2 will have to take a trick and get the bottle back. No other game requires you to be so aware of what cards have already been played. Low cards dumped beneath the bottle can really mess you up!
Actually, no, that's a terrible time to play the 4, because the player to your left who has the 2 could then follow with it immediately, and you (not he) would get the bottle.
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Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
"Don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church."
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aelfric_brewer wrote: tmredden wrote: Tarrant wrote: Early on it is to your advantage to take the bottle - I love being dealt cards in the mid to high teens, for example, because they can win early tricks for you, and it's almost inevitable that someone has a card lower than those that they will have to, at some point, play.
Winning a trick via trump gains you points, but also gains you the bottle. The objective is to try to win high-value tricks via trump, but to also ensure that by the end of the hand, someone else has been forced to trump with a lower card and take the bottle away.
One thing to beware of - be very careful about leading a trump card. If you lead, say, a mid-teens blue (which is under the current price of the bottle), your opponents can use that opportunity to get rid of the 1/2/3 which they might otherwise have been forced to take the bottle with. Likewise, if you have the 1/2/3, look for every opportunity possible where someone trumps with a high number so you can discard that card onto the trick, or you will end up at the last trick staring at the 1 in your hand knowing the bottle is yours. The longer you play the more things come out, and I'm convinced I haven't uncovered some of the games complexity even yet! If you know a player has a lower trump card than you (ie - you gave the player to your left the 2 at the beginning of the hand which hasn't come out yet), then you're safe to trump in with the 4 to take the trick AND the bottle - because you know the 2 will have to take a trick and get the bottle back. No other game requires you to be so aware of what cards have already been played. Low cards dumped beneath the bottle can really mess you up! Actually, no, that's a terrible time to play the 4, because the player to your left who has the 2 could then follow with it immediately, and you (not he) would get the bottle.
Obviously only if you're the last player in the hand and you know the player to your left is still stuck with the 2, NOT if the left player hasn't played in the trick yet (I presumed that was understood in my argument, it wasn't stated exactly.)
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Well I been watchin' while you been coughin, I've been drinking life while you've been nauseous, and so I drink to health while you kill yourself and I got just one thing that I can offer... Go on and save yourself and take it out on me
