Recommend
13 
 Thumb up
 Hide
60 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Playing with Loaded Dice rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: aleatory [+] metagame [+] [View All]
Brent Lloyd
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
badge
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
mbmbmbmbmb
Ok, these are not deliberately loaded dice, but those cheap dice with the rounded corners. You likely have lots laying around in various game boxes.

I was playing a game last weekend where you need your own d4, d6, d8 & d10 dice. A fellow showed up and everytime he needed to roll a die, he would select different dice to roll based upon what number he needed. He had been playing with these dice for years and figured out which ones tended to roll certain numbers more than others.

I use mostly the square edged dice by that Lou Zocchi guy (I don't remember his full name). The fellow made a comment that I will likely never win a game against someone like him who uses dice like his.

That comment both suprised me, and didn't suprise me. It suprised me that he actually stated it outright. It also suprised me that he had gone so far as to categorize his dice. It didn't suprise me that I lost.

He has not loaded or altered his dice in any fashion...just weeded out the undesirable ones. Is this technically cheating? On the line? Over the line?

Peace

Edited to spell Mr. Zocchi's name properly.
8 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steffan O'Sullivan
United States
Plymouth
NH
flag msg tools
"... whack 'em, and whack 'em, and whack 'em!" cried the Toad in ecstasy, running round and round the room, and jumping over the chairs.
badge
The smell of that buttered toast simply talked to Toad, and with no uncertain voice; talked of warm kitchens, of breakfasts on bright frosty mornings, of cosy parlour firesides on winter evenings ... of the purring of contented cats...
mbmbmbmbmb
Lou Zocchi. See a video at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR2fxoNHIuU

In a case like that, I'd simply ask that all players use the same dice, period.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Player: "Do I need to roll high or roll low?"
GM (me): "Yes."
Player: "Well, what do I need to roll?"
GM (me): "I'll tell you after you roll the die."
Player: "C'mon. What do I need to roll?"
GM (me): "A fifteen."
Player: "Cool! I rolled a 16."
GM (me): "Good. You were rolling for the monster."

Dunno what to do if we're playing boardgames, tho. Probably recruit the guy to play Arkham Horror. laugh
26 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Schmidt
United States
Suisun City
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
This player was deliberately influencing a game mechanic that is supposed to be completely random. I would call that cheating.
82 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Cox
United States
Fort Meade
Maryland [MD]
flag msg tools
designer
I bought this Overtext just to say I have an UberBadge and I'm not using it
badge
Dance like no one is trying to sleep in the next room
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think I could finish playing with the guy for two reasons:

A) It does sound kinda like cheating. He's knowingly selecting his dice based on what they tend to roll (and not just "Oh, this is my lucky die" kind of stuff). Loaded dice tend to roll a specific number constantly, and using one deliberately to circumvent the game mechanics (or mechanisms...) is cheating. Likewise, using dice you've sat down and proved favors one number or another, thus breaking the fairness of a random roll. Also cheating. And if it's not cheating, it's bare minimum unfair unless he shares his dice with others.

B) From the way he justified his actions, he sounds like a tool who needs a punch in the jibblies.
48 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
mb
Deep question here... Could you NOT play with a set of dice, if you knew the probable outcome of them?

I know it sounds easy to say, "yeah, get rid of those that always roll a 13"... but they don't ALWAYS roll a 13, you know? So at what point are they so 'loaded' that you really owe it to yourself and your fellow gamers to ditch them for a set of science dice?
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pete Belli
United States
Florida
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
He may be playing with loaded dice but he isn't playing with a full deck. shake
22 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Daytona Beach
Florida
flag msg tools
There is nothing better than playing board games with my 4 sons!
badge
There is nothing better than playing board games with my 4 sons!
mbmbmbmbmb
Whenever I had gamers come by (years ago I ran a local gaming group), I always had dice for each game already in the box ready to go, so nobody needed to bring dice and everyone shared dice from the same dice pool.

The only time I ever really encountered the problem you are having, was in Warhammer/40k when people bring bag loads of D6 dice and RPG's like D&D where people have bags of favorite and lucky dice.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Lloyd
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
badge
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
mbmbmbmbmb
bippi wrote:
So at what point are they so 'loaded' that you really owe it to yourself and your fellow gamers to ditch?


Ok, I paraphrased your question, but I think I have the ghist of it.

That is a great question. Lots of folks have a "lucky die" they use. You are correct, they don't "always" roll the right number, just what seems like often enough for someone to label it "lucky". Or it just appears to roll the right numbers at the critical moments.

To really get a handle on how "loaded" they are you would have to run tests on them. I have heard of folks building a die rolling machine to find out how loaded some dice are, but this is totally unrealistic for the average game player.

Peace
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brent Lloyd
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
badge
Canadian Game Design Award: http://www.fallcon.com/design
mbmbmbmbmb
FCSchmidt wrote:
This player was deliberately influencing a game mechanic that is supposed to be completely random. I would call that cheating.


Good point.

Peace
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Captain Ameritrash
United States
Statesboro
Georgia
flag msg tools
AFC
mbmbmbmbmb
dumwytgi wrote:
...he sounds like a tool who needs a punch in the jibblies.


Indeed. And then, a boot to the head.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The War Chief
United States
Parkville
Maryland
flag msg tools
designer
BRING ME THE HEAD OF SETH NEMEC!!!!!!!
badge
In Memorial: Abigail the cat. B:? D:12/24/13 You will be missed.
mbmbmbmbmb
Depending on the quality of the dice, small imperfections can cause a particular die to roll certain numbers more frequently. They do not necessarly need to be "loaded" to be "less-than-random".

Choosing a particular die that you knows rolls certain numbers for the situation is a form of cheating.

I would buy a full set of new dice, give them to him as a "present", and insist that he use them "to be fair".

Otherwise, don't play with him. He is cheating.

Jack
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrés Santiago Pérez-Bergquist
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Those dice probably aren't as loaded as he thinks they are. Humans are just so good at spotting patterns that we spot them when they don't exist, and then we refuse to change our minds. For instance, I have a d20 that I believe rolls a disproportionate number of 17s and 20s. This is a perfectly plausible thing for a die to do. However, it probably doesn't. It probably rolled a few 17s and 20s by chance at some point, and I noticed it. Since then, every 17 and 20 is clearly confirmation of its bias and every other number is just discarded as unimportant. I could sit down and roll it a whole bunch and run some chi-squared tests and know, but neither outcome is good. Either it's fair, and I'm just wrong, and it no longer feels like it's a superior die to use, or it really is noticeably biased, and then I'd feel like I was cheating if I kept using it for my characters. So, I'll just let it continue existing in an undetermined "rolls great" state.
25 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Damo
Australia
Hobart
Tasmania
flag msg tools
Look Up! Stay Alive!
badge
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Drop-Bear
mbmbmbmbmb
FCSchmidt wrote:
This player was deliberately influencing a game mechanic that is supposed to be completely random. I would call that cheating.


Definitly.

I'd also add arrogance - that he would have the gall to frankly state that he was influencing the odds.

No more plays for him!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stephen Brian
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I'm surprised by the number of equivocal responses. Of course it's cheating. The cheater apparently doesn't recognize it as cheating, or he wouldn't have told you. I would have nothing to do with someone who's moral compass is so far out of allignment.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ross Murray
Australia
Canberra
ACT
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Were you playing this person in a comp? If not, I would have just stood up and walked away. No use trying to argue with such a person, they would just insist that 'if you had thought ahead, you could have purchased such dice for yourself'.

As previously stated, anything a player contributes that influences their chances of winning - or even playing better - and isn't a part of the game itself should never be allowed. Someone who intentionally does this, no matter how open about it they are is playing for the wrong reasons.

I bet they were a bad winner too, no? Likely tried to rub it in that he was always going to win due to 'greater investment of time in his dice choices'.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Tell him that he can select his favorite die for each roll if you can select one of several random number generators you've prepared each time you have to roll. Here's a template for you:

int getRandomInteger() {
return 4; // this number was selected randomly when I made the program
}
11 
 Thumb up
0.06
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Eve
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Uncle Pennybags wrote:
I'm surprised by the number of equivocal responses. Of course it's cheating. The cheater apparently doesn't recognize it as cheating, or he wouldn't have told you. I would have nothing to do with someone who's moral compass is so far out of allignment.


I agree that he's cheating but when you find yourself using terms like "moral compass" about board games and dice games it's time to get some perspective.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rick weckermann
Canada
Powell River
British Coumbia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If die do not look altered in any way or weighted then it is a psych thing. This favorite die or lucky die attitude to possibly make you take chances you would not normally take in a game. As a note yes cheaper die that are not uniform in density throughout will tend to roll certain numbers more often. For example wooden die, in no way can they be the same density throughout. Die with indented pips, the 6 side is the lightest and other side the 1 is the heaviest, therefore die should roll a 6 more often than other numbers. Is it enough to make a definite difference greater than 5%, i do not think so but do not know. I did note in our heroscape die, that the green 20d had a rounded spot on the 17, which meant die would rarely roll a 4.
Is it cheating, no it is not, it is psychic gaming thats all. It is unfortunate that player is anal about it. A rule of thumb we usually have is any die in the game may be used by any player in the game.
That being said i do have actual loaded die and am waiting to play a game where we can set some one up to win, issue is you can tell the are altered die when you hold them. Would have to do some special rule like person to the right of you makes all rolls for you and play a game of Enemy in Sight
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Roberts

Unspecified
msg tools
TrashGameLover wrote:
dumwytgi wrote:
...he sounds like a tool who needs a punch in the jibblies.


Indeed. And then, a boot to the head.


And one for Jenny and the wimp.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kenny VenOsdel
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Once you know a die is loaded its loaded. If I found a die on the sidewalk that someone altered to almost always roll a 6 it would be cheating for me to use that die. Just because you didn't alter it doesn't mean its not cheating to take advantage of that alteration, or in this case defect.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David C
United States
Aurora
Colorado
flag msg tools
mb
If nothing else, you both should be playing with the same dice. I mean, what's the point of even bothering to play if you can't lose?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Mattlokk
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The critical question isn't did he cheat. The critical question is did he intend to cheat.

My answer is YES, he absolutely intended to cheat and worse yet, he bragged to you about how he screwed you (and anyone else who was playing the game). However, if his dice were not loaded (or in some way altered), I doubt they were truly a significant advantage.

Bottom line is that this guy acted like a complete knob job and I would definitely not game with someone like that.


... just a few final questions:

What game was it?

Had you played with the guy before?

Did it seem to you that his dice produced outcomes that he intended more frequently than you would expect any other "fair and random" dice to produce?



Edit grammar
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
George Buss
United States
Muncie
Indiana
flag msg tools
"Daddy, are you on Gored Bame Beak?!"
badge
“Here is my secret. It's quite simple: One sees clearly only with the heart. Anything essential is invisible to the eyes.” ― Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, Petit Prince
mbmbmbmbmb
Hammerite wrote:
Uncle Pennybags wrote:
I'm surprised by the number of equivocal responses. Of course it's cheating. The cheater apparently doesn't recognize it as cheating, or he wouldn't have told you. I would have nothing to do with someone who's moral compass is so far out of allignment.


I agree that he's cheating but when you find yourself using terms like "moral compass" about board games and dice games it's time to get some perspective.


I'm not sure about that. Gaming is in many ways a microcosm of our own way of approaching life. Whether that be as a "rules lawyer", "Risk Taker", "Cheater"...

You can learn alot about someone's character from the way they play...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Keith W
United States
Redmond
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see any sort of cheating here. Back when I used to play MageKnight/HeroClix, I would do much the same thing. I'm a d6 enthusiast and always carry a case with multiple sets around when playing a game that's d6 based like 'Clix. Some of my favorites were 5 sets of matching casino dice in different colors. Before I rolled, I would choose a set which matched one of the conditions of the character making the roll. If it was a 'Common' figure or the color of the power was yellow, or the character was mainly yellow in his costume, I would use my yellow dice. Similarly I would color-coordinate with my blue, green, red, and purple sets. Sometimes conflicts would arise, and it was a Red power coming from a Blue-based figure, and I would pick whichever one on a whim. If a set of dice failed me consistently, it would be retired for the day/match/amount of time I felt was needed.
I wasn't cheating, I was praying to the Dice Gods to grant me a bit of extra help. I allowed any opponent to use my dice as a show of common courtesy if they so chose so that they could see for themselves I was just mostly insane. It worked out pretty well for me, and I still stand by my old way of choosing dice for any occasion. If you can't handle it, don't play luck-based games
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.