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Subject: IV movement card rss

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Rick weckermann
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Today we went over this all but automatic win situation should Pompey move first with the IV card. We could not find a way for Caesar to not be defeated by Pompey achieving 10 points at end of 49 BC. Oddly enough my playing partner thought of this last night, and sure enough it happened in our first game today at Tim Hortons. If Pompey floods Rome with units on following turns, he should be able to easily hold Rome to end of 49 BC. Pompey only needs to grab one more point, which is easy to do around Asia minor, and there is nothing Caesar can do to prevent this. We tested several ways for Caesar to overcome this disadvantage and found Caesar must commit his forces to take a City away from Pompey. In all circumstances we tried this was very very difficult to do, he even hit one of my defending forces with a Vulcan card. Caesar will need the best of the Gods cards and a lot of good rolls with bad rolls by Pompey to stay in the game and even that may not be enough if Rome is not the City captured.

Has any one else come across this?
Can some one come up with a solution to this situation?
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C Sandifer
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I'm sure that you'll get different responses to your query, but I don't see how Pompey can hold Rome turn after turn.

Caesar has enough high-quality units early in the game that - short of a timely Jupiter card played by Pompey - Caesar should be able to kick Pompey out of Rome with a double-attack (attacking Rome from two adjacent cities) before reinforcements arrive.

Once in Rome, Pompey can recruit the Ballista and the Rome legion, for instance, but that's about it. (And even then, they won't be at full strength.) Recruiting Auxilia units won't be much help, and Caesar should strike before Pompey can ship an elephant, or some other dangerous unit, into Rome across the seas.

That said, Pompey can move into Rome and reinforce it solely as a diversion. As you point out, Caesar has to kick Pompey out of Rome or lose, while in the meantime Pompey can build up to 10 points by (1) securing numerous eastern cities and (2) diverting Caesar's attention away from Spain. That's a surer path to victory I think.
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Justin Thompson
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I had that happen to me at the WBC! The Great Block Gamer Fred Bauer tried the… take Rome Strategy. So he was pushed out of Rome on turn 2 of the first year and Caesar was in Alexandria by turn 5 of the first year. Just think of what he could have done if he hadn’t lost all of those blocks in an attempt to stand up to Caesar! Caesar is the Beast!

Here is my take. Ok Pompey plays the 4 card and jumps into Rome. Caesar still gets to Move and Build in turn 1 and most likely he gets to go first in turn 2. Let me see Pompey stand up to Caesar and Antony in Rome. I had no problem crushing Pompey 6 units on 5. As far as Pompey rushing to take 10 points...I have played over 300 games of JC and have never lost in the first year by a 10 point margin. I have lost in year 2 or later.

It only takes a few units heading east to take one of the VP cities to keep from losing. Or he can crush Pompey out of Hispania. Many games I have both Tarraco and New Carthage or take Utica at the end of year 1.

Remember we wanted Caesar to have a chance to win but he starts in a tight position and has to be aggressive or he can lose in year 1! The game is balanced. I will say if you rush up to Rome with Pompey I would guess Pompey holds on to Rome 2 out of 10 times and loses some blocks he could have used later to win the game. Pompey needs to have all his resources to win and sacrificing blocks to win 2 out 10 times is not good strategy. Pompey can not stand up to Caesar unless the Event cards help. I am ok with that as the will of the Gods can change everything with a flip of a card.

Just my take on it!

Justin Thompson
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Rick weckermann
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Quote:
I don't see how Pompey can hold Rome turn after turn.

Quote:
I had no problem crushing Pompey 6 units on 5.

His best attack was in turn 1 but that is near impossible to win that turn. The forces were 6 to 6 as the Ballista was there and the navis from Utica. By turn 2, Caesar had reorganized and was ready to attack again. I played a II *** card second (build 1CV navis and 2CV Elephant in Utica and build Ballista to full strength). My opponent could have tried to block the navis i was bringing in from Alexandria, but that would have meant a D3 battle against a D2 with a 1CV D2 coming in as reserves, if he moves first turn 3, by the odds the navis should survive the battle and still land in Rome. By turn 3 the Elephant was there and the navis from Alexandria, he played the Vulcan card on Rome. Knowing Caesar has better forces, i made sure the best i had was there also. Now there are all 3 of Pompey's ships in Rome a total of 8 units.
Anticipating a move by Caesar to the West to take Tarraco i was prepared to take two cities in Asia minor.
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I would guess Pompey holds on to Rome 2 out of 10 times

This may be the case with attack 6 against 5 but not 6 against 6 on first turn. We replayed the first year several times over, with the same results, final tally was Pompey 5 Caesar 0, great odds for Pompey. In the end it was the navis that tipped the scales in favor of Pompey.
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C Sandifer
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Kingmaker961 wrote:
I have played over 300 games of JC and have never lost in the first year by a 10 point margin. I have lost in year 2 or later.


Yeah, but you're the designer.

Also, unless I've been playing incorrectly, it isn't necessary for Pompey to outscore Caesar by a 10-point margin. Pompey just has to get to 10 points period. That's a big difference!

The rule:

"To determine victory, after each Year, players score the total value of Friendly cities, plus one Victory Point (1vp) for each enemy leader killed. To win, a player must have 10 (or more) VPs."

I once pulled out a first-year win as Pompey, although I could have done it a few more times (in other games) if I'd been paying attention. As a new player, though, I didn't know any better.
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Justin Thompson
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Also, unless I've been playing incorrectly, it isn't necessary for Pompey to outscore Caesar by a 10-point margin. Pompey just has to get to 10 points period. That's a big difference!


You only score by Victory at the end of the year.

To also put this in perspective lets also state that you have to have the 4 card to make this work. In the past 10 games I have had the 4 card a total of 6 times. Only once in the first year and Caesar got it not Pompey. I would guess someone out there could give you the percentages on how often Pompey might get the card in the first year.

Pompey must throw his entire effort into holding Rome with substandard units B3x3, C2x4, C3x3, D3X2 and a ballista B4x1 or 13 pips vs.
Caesar A3x3,Mark Antony A2x3, B2x3, C3x3 with reserves coming via Ravenna C3x3 C2x3 and even 1 unit from Asculum C3x3 depending on what card you play.

So Caesar and Mark Antony roll first averaging 2 1/2 hits. Pompeys Legion gets his butt kicked and maybe even his veteran gets hit as well.

Sorry guys but it seemed to me Caesar averages to win every time. And he even has more back up if he needs it.

Remember Pompey left Rome because he new his butt would be kicked if he tried to stay. If he defends to the Death thats a Victory point for Caesar.

Don't get me wrong if you like this idea try it. That is the beauty of this game....there are lots of ways to win!

Justin Thompson
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John Griffey
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Does not the Pompey-to-Rome gambit require Pompey move first on his second card?

Yet unless Pompey plays an Event as his second card, Pompey is unlikely to move first on his second card, as card ties break in favor of Julius.

I guess playing "Vulcan" as card 2 would best help Pompey hold Rome,but then what about turn 3?

Assuming I remember right, there are 27 cards, of which one is the 4-move card. Odds of Pompey (or Caesar) drawing the 4-move card are 1 - (26/27 x 25/26 x 24/25 x 23/24 x 22/23 x 21/22 = 1 - (7/9) = 1 - .7777 = 0.2222.
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Rick weckermann
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As mentioned we played our hands and first year 5 or 6 times, all with the same result Pompey held Rome till end of first year. The only defense that was not tried was blocking the Mare Tyrrhenum sea with the navis from Massila. This meant by turn 3 the Elephant and the navis from Alexandria were in Rome and 8 blocks were defending. The two D3 and one D2 navis were a significant defense in Rome. The only Gods card was the Vulcan card held by the Roman player. Can not recall all the cards we each had, though i believe other than the Vulcan card Pompey's hand was slightly better by a few extra moves and builds were about the same. Pompey only has to beat Caesar once more for moving first and can attack with decimated troops tying up Caesars new forces brought in for a final assault. This was done in one of the replays on 5th turn with a 3 move card played by Pompey and a 2 move by Caesar, Pompey attacked and was decimated, but won the game.
I guess time and future game play will tell. I am not insinuating game is broken in any way, just that i do not think it is a bad move on Pompey's part, or as bad as the author says
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Pompey needs to have all his resources to win and sacrificing blocks to win 2 out 10 times is not good strategy.
If Pompey does not win in the first year under these conditions yes he will lose the game. Also the author mentioned
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That is the beauty of this game....there are lots of ways to win!
and the best way i have found to do this, roll a lot more ones and twos than your opponent.
Wish we would have tried the blocking the Mare Tyrrhenum sea with the navis from Massila for Caesar, as right now it looks like that might be the solution we are looking for.
I wish to thank everyones input here HAIL CAESAR
 
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John Griffey
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The odds of Julius drawing at least one 3-move card is 76.4%. If my stats are not too rusty, the odds of Julius drawing exactly one 3-move card is 44.2%, and therefore the odds of Julius drawing more than one 3-move card is 33.2%. (These stats assume Pompey drew the 4-move card, thereby reducing the possibilities for Julius to 26 cards.)

On Turn 1, with a 4-move card, Pompey moves to Napoli to Roma with 3B3, 4C2, 2D3, from Brindisi to Roma with 3D3, and Utica to Roma with 3rd Navis 2D2. Pompey moves 2nd Navis 2D3 from Alexandria to Mare Internum. He then Levies a 1B4 Ballista in Roma.

On Turn 1, with a 2-move card, Julius activates Genua, moving Antony (2A2) to Messilla and moving the two Legio ( = 6C3) there to Asculum. Julius activates Narbo to move all three Legio there (6C2, 3C4) to Genua, and there Levies a 2-step Ballista (2B4). (With two 3-move cards, Julius could do better, assembling in Genua the 3B2 1st Equitatus or a 3C3 Legio from Massena, in addition to 2B4, 3C4, 3C2)

On Turn 2, Julius will likely move first with his 3-move card. His first wave from Genua is 2B4, 3C4, 6C2. His Reserves from Ravenna are 3A3, 3C3. His Reserves from Asculum are 6C3.

Pompey's defense in Roma is 3B3, 1B4, 3C3, 4C2, 2D3, 2D2.

Anything can happen in a battle. The following is close to the most likely outcome:

Round 1: Caesar's first wave gets hammered, losing 6 (or 7) of its 11 steps. Pompey's force loses 3 steps.

Round 2: Caesar's Reserves come into play, and he inflicts 6 hits on Pompey's force. Pompey inflicts 3 hits on Caesar's forces.

Round 3: Caesar's forces inflict 5 hits on Pompey's forces, defeating them. Pompey's force inflicts 2 hits on Caesar's forces.

So the average outcome is a bloodbath, with Caesar victorious, but suffering about as many hits as he inflicts. Pompey can win the battle but I guess his odds to do so are not better than 1/3, and he will probably be too weak to hold Roma.

Even if Caesar loses the Turn 2 bloodbath, his follow-on forces will very likely take Rome no later than Turn 4. The Optimates will be in worse shape to win the game with their leader Pompey killed. They will have to hold Spain and move fast to take all Greece to end a turn with 10 Victory Points.

When one considers that there is a 23.6% chance Julius draws NO 3-move card at all, and that such a chance would make Julius's retaking of Rome unlikely, Pompey may well have a better than even chance of holding Rome by taking Rome with the 4-move card. If Pompey's first year hand includes the 4-card and two or more 3-move cards, I would go for it, because then there is a high probability Julius has no 3-move cards in his hand.

If Pompey takes Rome on Turn 1 and Julius has no 3-move cards, Julius is in a tough spot.

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John Griffey
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Quoting Nastycleavage: "By turn 2, Caesar had reorganized and was ready to attack again. I played a II *** card second (build 1CV navis and 2CV Elephant in Utica and build Ballista to full strength). My opponent could have tried to block the navis i was bringing in from Alexandria, but that would have meant a D3 battle against a D2 with a 1CV D2 coming in as reserves,"

See Rule 6.14, Response Movement.
If Caesar attacks Rome on Turn 2 of the first year, Pompey cannot bring the 2nd Navis to Rome from Alexandria on Pompey's Turn 2 move, because Player 2 can only reinforce a battle from an adjacent space. The 2nd Navis is in Mare Internum, not adjacent to Rome, at the end of Turn 1. Is this not so?
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Rick weckermann
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Quote:
If Caesar attacks Rome on Turn 2 of the first year, Pompey cannot bring the 2nd Navis to Rome from Alexandria
True, issue was we played first year several times over, in actual 1st try, he used the Vulcan card second turn, so navis could land unharmed. As he had more lower movement cards than i, on second turn he went for builds with lower movement, i went all out to get units into Rome so usually played the III movements i had.
 
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John Griffey
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I still don't see how Pompey turns the 4-move march on Roma into a certain win. Caesar can take the next two moves, playing a 2-move card and then a 3-move card. He attacks Pompey in Rome from three spaces with eight blocks with a 3-move card. Usually, the following battle is a bloodbath type exchange, with Caesar prevailing most of the time.

Did your opponent never do this?

 
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Rick weckermann
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We had it happen again, this time though situation and cards were different. We have come to the conclusion that Caesar must have at least 1 3 move card to make an effective attack on Rome in this case, and he can not play it on the first turn when Pompey plays the IV card. The cards in hand for that game was the concern, so yes i believe Justin is correct, most often that can be a loosing ploy. The last game this happened Caesar had a few 3 move cards and easily took Rome and pushed Pompey out. Pompey still won though in the end.
So depending on the cards dealt, the IV move card for Pompey is not a certain win, though i will still go to Rome with it as Pompey in hopes that Caesar has no 3 move cards left, as a 2 move into Rome may not be strong enough to take Rome. Another major factor i have been made aware of today is the rule, a navis unit must be in a sea zone prior to it being used as a transport. We had played it that a navis unit could move into a sea zone and still be used to transport a land unit.
 
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Joshua Northey
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If this happens and you have no 3 move cards you can also abandon Italy and go for Spain and Greece, that can work.

Alex, Roma, Ant/Eph, Ut/Syra and CN are only 9.
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