Evan McAnney
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
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I wonder if there might be a database to help locate
designers who worked for defunct companies such as Parker Brothers. Then again, I think Black Box was licensed from a British company. Never mind.
Here is what I'd ask: what happens when a ray travels down
a column that contains multiple stones? Does it only hit the first one, or keep going and reveal them all?
Suppose you had three in a row, and that the rule is that a ray stops when it hits a stone. The two stones at the end have been revealed, so am I correct in thinking that the middle stone could only be revealed if a ray is cast from the opposite sides, bisecting the board?
Next, what happens when a ray is deflected and after deflection, it strikes yet another stone? Is that second stone discovered, or not?
Finally, anyone got good ideas for home-made pads that will be grease-pencil-eraseable?
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Matt Davis
United States
Upland
California
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In the rules I know, a stone is never really "revealed". You just get told that the ray hit something....
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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Agreed. The beam travels until it hits something, then stops/is deflected.
A couple of the more confusing situations (view using fixed font):
Stone at edge.
wbw
+----------
|...X......
|
Two stones together...
1bb2
+----------+
1|..........|2
b|..XX......|b
It is possible to construct traps, where one stone is placed so that it can't interact with the outside world, if that's what you're asking? (Our house rules here are to divide the final score by the number of possible locations of the hidden stone.)
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Gerald Moser-Fürst
Austria
Krems
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thats the fun and interesting part about this game: the ray keeps going on and on (except it is absorbed).
example: if you shoot into the box at position 18 the ray can exit at 3.
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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BearCat wrote: I wonder if there might be a database to help locate
designers who worked for defunct companies such as Parker Brothers. Then again, I think Black Box was licensed from a British company. Never mind.
Or, you could try their web sites, of course 
http://www.ericsolomon.co.uk/
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Jonathan Warren
United Kingdom
Wisbech
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
"Elves are very good at board games, and I'm NOT an elf!"
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It's possible to construct an atom setup in which there is more than 1 solution (without 'hiding') atoms.
Black Box was one of my favourite games that I played with my dad when I was young.
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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JoffW wrote: It's possible to construct an atom setup in which there is more than 1 solution (without 'hiding') atoms.
Sounds familiar. With 4 stones, that was usually by using the edge of the board, if I recall correctly? Our house rules are still to divide the score by the number of possible solutions.
Examples, please
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Evan McAnney
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
-
Thank you all for your comments.
Maybe I missed something.
Does anyone have any answers to my specific questions?
Wikipedia suggests that a deflected ray that hits a second stone detects that stone, but this would contradict the paper rules, which differentiate, and require a player to say EITHER "Hit" or "Detour".
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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BearCat wrote: Does anyone have any answers to my specific questions?
I don't think we really understand your question. Can you give us an example? I'm sure we'll all jump in with what we think happens
The easiest way is to set out the board in ascii, and use the code tags ([ c ] without the gaps) to keep the formatting.
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Jonathan Warren
United Kingdom
Wisbech
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
"Elves are very good at board games, and I'm NOT an elf!"
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mrraow wrote: JoffW wrote: It's possible to construct an atom setup in which there is more than 1 solution (without 'hiding') atoms. Sounds familiar. With 4 stones, that was usually by using the edge of the board, if I recall correctly? Our house rules are still to divide the score by the number of possible solutions. Examples, please
Sorry, I think I might be thinking of having one atom hidden, although I thought that I had a chart in my copy (that I made) of an atom setup of a 2 solution problem without a 'hidden' atom, but it's not in my copy now 
mrraow wrote: BearCat wrote: Does anyone have any answers to my specific questions? I don't think we really understand your question. Can you give us an example? I'm sure we'll all jump in with what we think happens The easiest way is to set out the board in ascii, and use the code tags ([ c ] without the gaps) to keep the formatting.
I agree. I'm not sure exactly what you are specifically asking here.
Atoms are never 'revealed' by the ray markers at all, they just show the movement of a ray entering the Black Box. I also say use ascii, as suggested, and replicate the board layout so we can visualise what question you specifically want answering.
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Evan McAnney
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
-
The designer, Eric Solomon, was kind enough to supply some answers:
Evan : I have an incomplete second-hand copy of your excellent game, "Black Box". It is a 1978 Parker Brothers edition. Could I possibly impose upon you to answer a few questions?
1. Do you endorse the rules interpretations and board diagrams as they appear on Wikipedia?
Eric: Yes, they are OK.
(WTF does "OK" mean, exactly? Adequate? or "You can consider the Wikipedia article to be exact rules for explicit situations, and just ignore the book that came with the game"?)
2. If a ray is deflected, and strikes a stone after deflection, what is the code
maker supposed to say? Is this a "deflection" or a "hit"?
Eric: He says nothing, and just places a 'hit' (absorption) marker.
(Sigh of relief. A clear and simple answer!)
3. If there are multiple stones within a column, does the ray strike them all,
or stop at the first stone it encounters?
The first hit terminates the ray trajectory, of course!
("Of course"??!! Obviously, there are a LOT of assumptions in this game designer's head that are COMPLETELY opaque to me.)
3. Suppose you had three stones in a row within a column.
Suppose that the two stones at the end have been revealed.
Am I correct in thinking that the remaining, middle, stone could
only be revealed if a ray is cast from one of the opposite sides, bisecting the board?
Eric: Yes.
(Terse, but it satisfies the question, thank goodness.)
4. Is it possible to construct traps, where one stone
is placed so that it can't interact with the outside world?
Eric: Certainly. That is explained in the Wikipedia page.The point is that the shielding atoms lie in a simple pattern. Detection of such a pattern s a good clue that there is a hidden atom.
(Yeah. Well, excuse me for doubting something as authoritative as Wikipedia)
5. Is a codebreaker allowed to expose a stone by sheer inference,
or is it mandatory that a
ray be cast (expended) to strike it first?
Eric: Obviously inference is permitted!
( "Obviously"? Can anyone explain to me what makes this "obvious"? No where in my rules does it state, or even imply, that any stones/atoms can be completely
hidden from a Ray, thus the only way they could be revealed would be by inference.
Even figuring that out, that does not amount to a RULE, that you are allowed to GUESS instead of sending out a Ray.)
6. The rules state that the game should contain
48 markers. Sadly, I have fewer than that. I presume that the codebreaker's turn expires when he runs out of markers? In that case, it would be useful to know how many of each color (red for hit, yellow for misses, orange mates for detours).
Eric: If you don't have enough markers, make some with cardboard bearing a letter.
(Ok, I'm fortunate that this kind man took any time at all to respond, but, still, this lame-ass answer pisses me off. I need/want a RULE here. HOW MANY OF EACH TYPE OF MARKER is supposed to be in the game!!?? My game is second hand, and missing some markers!)
Evan: Thank you for your time and attention.
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Jonathan Warren
United Kingdom
Wisbech
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
"Elves are very good at board games, and I'm NOT an elf!"
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You come across as a very bitter man for some reason.
I think the rules for Black Box are written well and the Wikipedia entry gives all the information one might require for playing the game. Why you seem to be mad at the game designer is beyond me!
Did your copy come with the rules?
Just to answer a question, the original game (and the best looking IMO - the Waddingtons version) came with 8 White markers (reflection - ray out at same position), 8 Black markers (Absorb - ray does not exit), 8 pairs of Coloured markers (Deflection - ray exits at different place).
Yes, there is a problem with running out of ray markers particularly if you use a 5 atom setup. For my set I raided old games to give me several extra pairs of colours, some more blacks and some more whites so I don't have the problem of running out of markers.
The official rules are as follows:
RUNNING OUT OF PAWNS
If during play the experimenter has used all the appropriate coloured pawns, the challenger may remove any pawn or pair of pawns from the grid and reposition to indicate the position of a ray just called. If a pair of colours is used two points are immediately added to the experimenters score, and if one colur, i.e. a black or white pawn is used one point is added. At the end of the game the pawns on the grid are added up in the normal way.
I have uploaded to my gallery the rules for the Waddingtons version of the game.
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Evan McAnney
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
-
As you can see from #6 above, I do have a copy of the rules. Had you taken the time to read, rather than being so eager to be snide, you could also have seen that my game is the Parker Brothers edition from 1978. I do not consider the rules in this edition to have been well written.
The unanswered question is, how many tries does the hunter get to discover the Atoms? I still do not have a color distribution
for the Parker Brothers edition.
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Jonathan Warren
United Kingdom
Wisbech
CAMBRIDGESHIRE
"Elves are very good at board games, and I'm NOT an elf!"
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I was not being 'snide', I was simply mentioning the way your post came across. I am sorry I missed that your copy came with rules. Perhaps you could do what I have done for you and upload a photo of them to your gallery.
I can only answer from the Waddingtons edition, which says that the experimenter (hunter) continues firing rays into the box, until he is satisfied that he knows the position of the 4 atoms. He gets one attempt to solve it, guessing incorrectly or solving the problem.
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Stephen Tavener
United Kingdom
London
England
The overtext below is true.
The overtext above is false.
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JoffW wrote: I can only answer from the Waddingtons edition, which says that the experimenter (hunter) continues firing rays into the box, until he is satisfied that he knows the position of the 4 atoms. He gets one attempt to solve it, guessing incorrectly or solving the problem.
He is then assigned a score based on number of markers placed during the firing phase, plus a penalty for each incorrect guess. Players then swap roles, and lowest score wins.
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