Inka van Helvoirt
Netherlands
Vlijmen
Noord brabant
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I have a question about the unencumbered shares.
We have some timing difficulties with this wich is very confusing. I hope i can explain it correct.
In the end game before counting i have :
- 30 peso's. (i know it's not much, but its just an example)
- 3 encumbered shares.(lets say those are 1 silk and 2 jade)
(15 each which makes -45)
- 1 unencumbered share lets say jade. (for the example 1 jade is worth +10, 1 silk is worth +20, 1 ginseng is worth +30).
Question :
Do you have to buy the encumbered shares back with peso's? meaning you can only use the money you "have" not the money you get from the unencumbered shares? Or is it possible to first take the money from your unencumbered shares (which gives you peso's extra) and then buy back the encumbered shares.
So we have 2 situations in which it is very important when we are allowed to sell "what".
situation 1)You have 30 peso's + you get 10 peso from the unencumbered shares which give you a total of 40peso. You can't pay the encumbered shares which costs you 45peso.You are 5 peso's short.
Are you allowed to use the value of the encumbered shares to pay for this card? Meaning that you use the encumbered card's value to pay for it's loan? (meaning you get peso's back for the cards before you are able to pay for them?)
This is a hard one to explain because i had difficulties describing the situation in which this occurred. In our game today one guy ended up with only 1 unencumbered card, 6 encumbered cards and no peso's. He used his encumbered cards to pay for their loan (cus he had no peso's left), which i found a bit odd. Say those 6 where all ginseng worth 30 (I know its not possible, but again, its just an example, i just wanne point something out). 6 x -15 = -90. Ginseng is 6 x 30 = 180. 180 - 90 = 90 (for the cards minus their loan) So he got himself 90 peso's that game. Is this allowed? (i hope this one is clear)
Or is it played as followed?
Situation 2) You have 30 peso's. You need to use this money to buy back the encumbered shares. They cost you 45 but you only have 30 so you can only buy 2 of them back, leaving you with nothing. You can't buy all 3. Now you count the 2 shares you bought back. (lets say you bought back 1 jade and 1 silk) which gives you 30 peso's. And only NOW you receive the money you got from the 2 unencumbered shares you already had. (also 1 silk and 1 jade) so that makes 30 more. Your end total is 60.
You don't use the money you receive from the shares. You use only the money you got at that moment!
I hope its clear what i mean, cus i had a hard time translating it.  And i hope someone can give us an answer how to play it correct.
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Claudio Campuzano
United States
Portland
Oregon
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I don't have the rules in front of me, but we've always played that you just total up your cash and all shares and subtract the cost of the encumbered shares.
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Claudio Campuzano
United States
Portland
Oregon
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Just checked the rules online. They read:
Quote: Each player counts his cash (PESOS) and adds to this the value of his shares (the value of the ware as
shown on the black market table). From this sum, he subtracts 15 PESOS for each encumbered share
(loan not yet repaid). This final total is the players FORTUNE.
For some reason, the 15 peso cost seems high IIRC (maybe it was changed at some point after the rules were posted on the RGG website, or maybe I'm just not remembering right), but it makes the order of operations clear.
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Inka van Helvoirt
Netherlands
Vlijmen
Noord brabant
-
The situation i talk about occurred just before counting the cash and after the last round. Some people had encumbered shares and said that they where allowed to buy them back between the last round and the counting. (is this allowed so close to the end?)
Then we started to argue about how we could buy them back.
1) If we could only use the peso's we had at that moment.
2) Or if we could change the unencumbered shares for money first. And then buy back the encumbered shares with that money. (so the peso's you got + the money you received from the unencumbered shares. I found this a bit odd, cus the rules say that the shares only count for money at the end of the game, not just before the end).
But we just couldn't figure that out.
So these are the questions
- Is it allowed in the first place to buy back ur shares just before the count and after the last round? Or is that simply to late and and you have to count them as minus?
If its still allowed, what is the correct way to buy them back?
1) Use only peso's you got at THAT moment to buy them back? If you aren't able to buy them back, they simply count as minus.
or
2) Use peso's AND money from the Unencumbered shares you already delivered to buy the encumbered shares back.(this doesn't seem right, but some people sayed it was allowed)
After buying the shares back with that money they count as unencumbered again.
What also confuses us was that the following :
- the rules say : "At game end, the players must pay back 15 PESOS for each still encumbered share in their play" Does this mean that AFTER you payed for them, they count as unencumbered shares again? I don't think so but again, there were people (who played it before) who said that this was allowed.
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Michel van Peenen
Netherlands
Rijnsburg
Zuid-Holland
-
I did some rules research for you.
Both the Dutch and English rules are different from the original German rules when looking at scoring points at the end of the game.
Extraction from the German rules:
Sobald (mindestens) eine Ware auf dem Schwarzmarkt den Wert von 30 Pesos erzielt, endet das Spiel.
Jeder Spieler zählt sein Barvermögen (PESOS) zusammen. Dann ermittelt er den Wert seiner Anteilscheine auf dem „Schwarzmarkt“.
Den Gesamtwert seiner unbeliehenen Anteile zählt er zu seinem Barvermögen hinzu.
Von diesem Ergebnis zieht er für jeden Kredit, den er nicht zurückgezahlt hat, 15 PESOS ab.
Damit steht sein VERMÖGEN fest.
Which roughly translates to:
*1: As soon as the value marker for at least one ware reaches 30 on the black market table, the game ends.
*2: Each player counts his cash (PESOS) and adds to this the value of his unencumbered shares (the value of the ware as shown on the black market table).
From this sum, he subtracts 15 PESOS for each encumbered share (loan not yet repaid).
This final total is the players FORTUNE.
As you can see the English rules (and also the Dutch rules) left out the word unencumbered, which makes a lot of difference in the points you score.
Because of rule *2 any encumbered shares are not added to your total shares per ware. Nasty. 
If you think that is too much of a penalty for encumbering a share you could use the English or Dutch rules and add the encumbered shares to the total of shares per ware and just pay 15 pesos for the fact that the share was encumbered but make sure you agree which rule to use before the start of the game.
And now for paying back shares after the end of step 4 'Ware value rise':
The way we play is that the game ends immediately if at least one ware has a value of 30 after step 4 'Ware value rise'.
The soring is not part of the game and therefore you are not allowed to payback any encumbered shares after the end of step 4 because the game has already ended.
I hope this all makes everything a little clearer.
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Inka van Helvoirt
Netherlands
Vlijmen
Noord brabant
-
That clears it up entirely. (now i can go back to my friends and point fingers haha )
Thanks a lot for explaining it! 
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Claudio Campuzano
United States
Portland
Oregon
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Carrotteer wrote: As you can see the English rules (and also the Dutch rules) left out the word unencumbered, which makes a lot of difference in the points you score. Because of rule *2 any encumbered shares are not added to your total shares per ware. Nasty.
Wow. That is a huge difference/error! That makes all the difference in the world. I'm not sure I'll like it, but we'll certainly try it next time...
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Michel van Peenen
Netherlands
Rijnsburg
Zuid-Holland
-
Maybe it was left out intentionally because the translators thought it was too much of a penalty for encumbering shares.
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Claudio Campuzano
United States
Portland
Oregon
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Maybe. And I've got to check out my published rules (not the ones online). I'm almost certain, the cost at the end for encumbered shares is 13...
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Patrick Taylor
United Kingdom
Portishead
Unspecified
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Pseaking as someone who lent money against assets it is common law that the value of the security, in this case unencumbered shares, are realised and any credit balance obtained paid to the borrower. ANy shortfall would be required from the borrower.
I can understand why people would therefore see it the normal way.
The original rules are actually very interesting and subtle in their effect and it seems woth playing to see if, as I suspect, it reduces the harbour master cost.
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Stephen Sanders
United States
Henderson
Texas
25% Scottish, 25% Dutch, 18% English, 15% Irish, 9% German, 5% French, 3% "Black Dutch" (?) = 100% American!
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Carrotteer wrote: And now for paying back shares after the end of step 4 'Ware value rise':
The way we play is that the game ends immediately if at least one ware has a value of 30 after step 4 'Ware value rise'.
The soring is not part of the game and therefore you are not allowed to payback any encumbered shares after the end of step 4 because the game has already ended.
Yes, and one can actually pay for the encumbered share after receiving profit in the final phase 3, just before final phase 4 when ware values rise and game ends for scoring.
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