Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
This is not your typical review, because DBA is not a typical game.
De Bellis Antiquitatis means something like “Wars of Antiquity”.
How good can a “historical” game be with only exactly 12 units each?
Not being into miniatures, I needed scenarios, CRTs, hex-maps; …I thought.
Typically, you buy a DBA rule/army-list book and then create all the
pieces, board, terrain, etc. that you need. Rather than copiously
explain the rules (which are better described on the “Fanaticus/Wadbag” sites)
I will outline how I gradually got drawn into becoming a big fan.
These ten steps are sprinkled with decisions I made along the way.
There are so many paths to take when starting in DBA (over 550
armies, many locales, eras in history, etc.); my purpose is not to recommend but
simply to enlighten. Newbies to DBA might find this useful (or
bewildering), experienced players may make counter-examples (welcome),
experts may find it blasphemous (or simply blathering).
1. Just Model Railroaders Gaming? Upon stumbling onto a
few dozen DBA gamers in a tournament, I thought that
such a simple, one-hour, game must have been invented
to allow these talented model-makers to socialize over their
creations. But they looked like they were having such fun!
A DBA “tournament” is usually 4 to 5 one-hour games w/different
opponents; like speed dating. Our local Congress of Gamers includes
a yearly DBA tournament:
2. Learn by “Word-of-mouth” not reading cryptic rulebook “Barkerese”.
At the next “boardgame” convention; I was treated to a thorough DBA
demo that made the game MUCH clearer than the hard-to-read rulebook.
I am lucky that our local WADBAG group is so friendly, helpful, and
knowledgeable; as is their unofficial WADBAG rulebook guide .
3. Scale: 2, 6, 10, 15, 25mm?
Since I was building a Rourke’s Drift diorama ,
it seemed logical to fabric my Zulus so they could serve double duty
as a DBA army. Wanting my Zulu diorama to fit on a typical dining
table; a 15mm scale (typical height to top of head) would also match
with most of the local gamers. The standard, larger size, 25-28mm,
is typically used for DBA’s fantasy sister game, Hordes Of The Things (HOTT).
For painting, playing, and storing, 15mm seemed just right.
4. Recruit an Army. In my ignorance, I made my first army as a mostly weak
warband (Wb) army from the alternate lists. Although loaner armies
are always available, I felt better prepared to participate by bringing my
own army. Kindly, my first opponent choose to challenge me with one
of his similarly weakling armies. With him in the lead (of course) 3 to 1
I made three risky attacks to win 4-3. I was hooked!
The Fanaticus site has tons of info for selecting, building, researching, and
commanding your armies. Inventing various base camps for each army is
another outlet for creativity.
My Zulu hut (w/ a flock munching oregano flocking), and a beached boat
for littoral sea raider armies, and my Roman watch tower:
5. An Elephants (or a Chariot) in every driveway.
Looking for an excuse to add some nifty element types led me to S. E. Asia armies.
Here are my Zulus with an elephant General to make a Java army +
Java “altar” pavilion:
Java also led me to design a “coffee” tee shirt; “Good to the 4th drop!”
Check here for the “best” armies; and to compare makers of figures .
6. Blades are Better. Time to upgrade from weak Warband to mostly Blades
(the Queen of the battlefield).
Not yet knowing the intricacies of armies with many element types,
I stuck with an army of mainly one type for a Marian Roman army (a killer army).
At tournaments though, my inexperience in maneuvering, terrain,
initial placement, etc. usually led to being out-maneuvering by faster, partly mounted armies.
Though DBAonline didn’t work for me,
it does have an out-dated list of most armies.
(DBA has been around since 1990, with slight updates every several years,
now at version 2.2; DBA 3.0 may come out in 2011-12.)
The “Sea People” have NINE of their 12 units as blades.
7. Economical E-bay Enemies. While searching e-bay, I was surprised to find
fully painted 15mm armies for a reasonable price (some are very pricey!)
You may have to wait a long time for your e-bay searches to pay off.
Narrowing my search to Romans and their enemies; I found some that
were excellently painted. You may prefer very colorful, Easter-egg
colors or maybe realistic, muted tones; either way you’ve got examples
to follow.
“Rebasing” and adding a few figures may be required to update old e-bay
armies to the army option wanted. I use metal Litko bases w/ muted,
oregano “flocking”. Wooden bases can make taller, more imposing units,
like chess pieces; however, thin metal with bland flocking puts more
emphasis on the figures, and allows sheet-magnet shelf liners to hold units.
Sand for desert armies (a necessity for an army of camels) and snow for
northern ones does not allow easy mix-and-match.
For ease of identification I paint the underside of each army’s bases a distinct color.
8. All roads lead to Rome, so do neat army enemies. As I started getting
more Romans, I learned (from the Fanaticus site) that with just 34 units
I could mix and match to field 8 Roman armies; I’m still working on it.
It is easy to find interesting Roman enemies to bring matched pairs to
tournaments that require it.
Likewise, I’ve seen a guy with a huge collection of Greeks able to
pick-and-choose any Greek army he wants.
9. Good Knights! Charging knights are impressive (with colorful banners) but
impetuous in battle, and they do take longer to paint and more space to store.
For each army I make up a sheet to keep info handy:
Speaking of storage, I went for “Sabol” customizable foam trays that each
hold about two armies and stack in a plastic tub: (foregoing drawers
with magnetic shelf liners)
10. Time to try Tricky Terrain.
Enough of “one-note” armies (mainly of one unit type) and
“high aggression” armies (that usually let the defenders set up terrain);
I’m ready to tackle terrain deployment and armies of more varied units.
Here’s a roll call of what my armies have grown to in 2010 (not all in photo):
1 El, 13 Kn, 6 Cv, 1 LC, 11 Lh, 13 Bd, 12 Sp, 1 Ar, 29 Wb, 10 Ax, 8 Bw, 8 Ps,
needing more El, Cv, Sp, Pk, Wwgn + others (maybe camels, scythed chariots?)
And here is a very helpful collection of player aids:
Proceeding from one army, to two with elephant and chariot, to killer blades,
to faster killer knights, to Rome and its enemies; …now I look for a “book one” army
(for at least one army from each of the 4 “books”), evenly-matched historical pairs,
and various other interests. When you get interested in having a sample of each
of the unusual element types; the Early Achaemenid Persians (I/60b) can’t be beat:
besides 2 Cavalry, 5 Archers, 1 Auxilia, 1 Psiloi, there is: a Scythed chariot, a
Warwagon siege tower, and even a Camel unit!
BEWARE! DBA can lead to many enjoyable tangents:
geography, craftsmanship techniques, research on flags,
gaming maneuvering, historical personages, weapon handling, etc.
Conclusions: DBA is best learned from a veteran player, but is also fun to
play solo. Loaner armies are usually available at meets. I thought about just
spraying an army white and gluing them to bases; heck, you could even play
with simple paper cutouts. The pageantry of the huge variety of figures and
various personal interpretations, though, adds much to the DBA experience.
Those who like DBA tend to have an unquenchable curiosity about history,
patience w/craftsmanship, a collector’s tendency towards completism,
a tolerance for luck in an hour game, and a love of “cool” bits.
A system this simple that covers thousands of years of conflict on
every continent cannot demonstrate all the intricacies of: clever
historical tactics, technological weapons advances, strategic logistics,
specific terrain situations, and political backgrounds.
It does, however, easily encourage going off on historical
tangents to learn about all these.
I am constantly learning how much I don’t know.
DBA games give an amazingly real “feel” of experiencing an ancient battle.
Knocks (rebuttal): A. An experienced player can pull many “tricks” on those just learning DBA
(but it is fun to learn these tactics, and later, apply them).
B. High rolls can swing a game in your favor (but getting low action “pips”
make interesting dilemmas, and the “game-length” to “luck” ratio is fitting).
C. Measured movement requires comfort with visual estimation and approximation
rather than distinct values and reliable calculation (like preferring
“analog” music from strings and trombones versus “digital” piano and
clarinet; IYKWIM).
D. By covering EVERY ancient/medieval army throughout the WORLD you don’t
accurately portray specific situations (but it’s only a game; and “feels” right
while generating much interest for study and discussion).
E. There is no widely-accepted system for rating armies for comparison, some are
stronger (“matched pair” tournaments allow one to present “equal” armies,
while the other chooses; or you can do best two out of three with identical armies).
F. Rules are easy to overlook or misinterpret (that’s why it’s best in a “meet”
situation, there is bound to be an expert there or, at least, you learn from an
informed consensus; DBA is really a multi-player 1 v 1 game).
Final Word. While not for everyone; DBA is one of those games I enjoy pondering
and researching almost as much as playing. This review is just the tip of the iceberg.
Your comments and perspectives are definitely welcome. IMHO,
DBA really “captures the imagination.”
++++edit for formatting++++++
-
David
New Zealand
Taupo
May the Great Spirit Bless all who read this.
-
Great effort. I Love DBA but haven't played it for years due to a lack of opponents.
-
-
Is that you going up against DK in the first picture?
-
Bob Blanchett
Australia
Clifton Hill
Victoria
-
really nice concissummary
top effort
and yes, thank god for the wadbag book
-
Bob Blanchett
Australia
Clifton Hill
Victoria
-
you cant find opponents in auckland????
crikey that is unlucky
-
Bob Blanchett
Australia
Clifton Hill
Victoria
-
david,
have a look at this guy here:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBA/message/22931
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/DBA/msearch?query=auckla...
seems to be a few blokes in the same situation
-
Lorenzo Mele
Italy
Milano
Unspecified
-
Well, why do not try DBMM 100? You would like it.
-
Andreas Johansson
Sweden
Linköping
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
-
Blackpope wrote: Well, why do not try DBMM 100? You would like it.
I find that DBMM 100 is a bit of an unhappy medium, lacking both the simplicity of DBA and the full detail of DBMM 200 or full-scale DBMM.
-
Barry Kendall
United States
Lebanon
Pennsylvania
-
OUTSTANDING intro to DBA!!!
Like you, I found that verbal instruction is vastly easier to absorb than the written rules are to implement.
You've caught the addictive, potato-chip quality of DBA ("Just one more . . . well, maybe another . . . oh, make it a handful . . . ") but also the zest of play.
I've slogged through my share of miniatures systems, some of which bogged down in mutual exhaustion for all players not too far into them (my favorite Ancients systems are A to Z Ancients, Advanced Armati and, for some armies still, Tactica) but DBA plays faster than most rulebooks can be read and you're always ready for another match.
Your storage system is well-conceived--who makes those plastic/foam boxes and where can they be found?
One more note: boardgamers should NOT be put off DBA just because of the miniatures requirements. The playing area is a standardized two-foot-by-two-foot square, terrain can be easily represented with felt cut-outs in various colors, and you really don't need miniatures to play--simply cut art matting material to appropriate base size and label with unit type and you're ready to play.
Later, of course, those art-matting cutouts will make good starter bases for the miniatures you won't be able to resist . . . .
-
Giles Pritchard
Australia
Shepparton
Victoria
-
I really like DBA - though it's been a while since I played last. I also quite like Hordes of the Things for a similar weight of game with a fantasy bent and more flexibility. Having said that - I love the historical aspects of DBA more.
Great review.
Cheers,
Giles.
-
Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
-
capt yid wrote: How good can a “historical” game be with only exactly 12 units each?
Actually, that was what drew me to DBA. I thought, "Wow--here's a wargame that's as straightforward and manageable as a game of chess!" I really wanted that.
Now I own two DBA rulebooks and two HotT rulebooks, and I never play either. Why?
I made the mistake of turning a blind eye to an obvious fact: this is a miniatures game. Sure, you can play it with just painted bases, or with the foam-board "elements" that I made--but it's not the same.
And I simply cannot stand miniatures. I've tried; they just don't work for me. I don't like collecting them; I hate painting them; and I don't really like the look of them even when someone has done a good job. I wanted to love miniatures, because I've always loved chess pieces and the like--and it'd be great to have a wargame with high-quality game pieces instead of those cheap cardboard unit-counters. But alas--miniatures are not just game pieces.
Well, to each his own. I'd highly recommend DBA and HotT to anyone who does want to get into miniatures wargaming. Thumbs-up to the above review. As for me, I'll have to stick with ABD instead of DBA.
-
Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
badinfo wrote: Is that you going up against DK in the first picture?
Those are some other WADBAG members at COG '10; Jack Sheriff
is laughing in the background.
Here is the famous DK (Dave Kuijt; a fun and challenging opponent):
It was against DK that my weakling Warbands luckily won my first
DBA game and got me hooked.
-
Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
Barry Kendall wrote: OUTSTANDING intro to DBA!!!
You've caught the addictive, potato-chip quality of DBA ("Just one more . . . well, maybe another . . . oh, make it a handful . . . ") but also the zest of play.
Your storage system is well-conceived--who makes those plastic/foam boxes and where can they be found?
Thanks for all the kind words!
Your potato chip analogy is right on the money.
It's amazing how, for DBA armies, "nobody can build just one..."
The Sabol trays were about $8 each from:
http://www.saboldesigns.net/figurefoam.html
I think I got the 2 inch thick ones; though
for an all infantry army 1 inch might work;
a 3 inch thick one holds my camps.
-
Dean Hickman
United States
Huntington Park
California
-
I love playing DBA also. When it was popular in Los Angeles and their were a lot of tournaments, I was able to play. Now there are no tournaments and most ancients players have switched to the Osprey Ancients rule set, not something I got into but in retrospect should have.
Is DBMM Barker's answer to the Osprey Ancient's rule set?
Have not really found a good Ancients Boardgame. The GMT ancients game I could not really get into nor the Victory point's ancients game either.
-
Andreas Johansson
Sweden
Linköping
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
-
Dean_H wrote:
Is DBMM Barker's answer to the Osprey Ancient's rule set?
Not in intent - development on DBMM started before that on (Osprey's) Field of Glory. But the later was published first.
-
Muz Fish
Australia
Canberra
-
Great review! I am also a DBA fan.
Two other points suggest themselves:
1. Luck. In the many competitions I have entered in Canberra and Sydney the same players are often featured in the placings (even when using different armies). For a game that some see as luck based it is astonishing how the more skilled players often seem to win.
Note this does not include me. My usual competition is to paly well enough to win one or two then the Swiss chess ranking system has me play the 'big guns' who then send me tumbling down the rankings into the middle of the pack.
2. Fun. A few years ago my girlfriend (now wife) came a long to a gaming convention and we wandered about looking at what was going on. She was pretty put off by the hyper serious Warhammer types, FOW types and the DBM gamers but pleasantly surprised by the casual and friendly demeanour of the DBA players. I guess when a game is about 45 minutes it is hard to get some 'emotionally invested' in the competitive aspect of it all as it is for the longer (3 hour or so) competition games.
DBA really does it for me and I don’t really want to try any other ancient system.
-
Rusty Ballinger
United States
Arcata
California
-
Patrick Carroll wrote: I made the mistake of turning a blind eye to an obvious fact: this is a miniatures game. Sure, you can play it with just painted bases, or with the foam-board "elements" that I made--but it's not the same.
I don't get this. I don't see any difference between playing with cardboard rectangles with "Warband" written on them (the only way I've played) and playing a hex & counter game with cardboard squares with NATO symbols on them.
-
Muz Fish
Australia
Canberra
-
There is even a NATO symbol for chariots,top row second from left:
Those guys think of everything!
-
Giles Pritchard
Australia
Shepparton
Victoria
-
kuhrusty wrote: Patrick Carroll wrote: I made the mistake of turning a blind eye to an obvious fact: this is a miniatures game. Sure, you can play it with just painted bases, or with the foam-board "elements" that I made--but it's not the same. I don't get this. I don't see any difference between playing with cardboard rectangles with "Warband" written on them (the only way I've played) and playing a hex & counter game with cardboard squares with NATO symbols on them.
While there is some truth in this (there is no difference in play), there is a difference in what people experience with the game - when we are talking about a counter based game and a miniatures based game.
With a minis game there is a hobby aspect that goes well beyond the clipping of counters or the cutting of squares. Painting historical miniatures so they represent the troop type accurately is part of the fun of this sort of game. One of the great things about DBA as opposed to other minis games is that it is relatively minis light - so no painting up a bajillion Sarissa bearers for that Seleucid army (only a tenth of a bajillion (not even a full 'b')).
Research into period colours, uniforms and schemes, the actual modeling and painting, the making of terrain - all can come into a minis game - and are a big part of the fun (at least for sad people like myself ).
That's what I miss about minis games - and why I'm looking at getting back into De Bellis Antiquitatis, Hordes of the Things and Song of Blades and Heroes (plus the Song of Fur and Buttons spin off for the latter sounds a lot of fun).
Cheers,
Giles.
-
Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
caradoc wrote: kuhrusty wrote: Patrick Carroll wrote: I made the mistake of turning a blind eye to an obvious fact: this is a miniatures game. Sure, you can play it with just painted bases, or with the foam-board "elements" that I made--but it's not the same. I don't get this. I don't see any difference between playing with cardboard rectangles with "Warband" written on them (the only way I've played) and playing a hex & counter game with cardboard squares with NATO symbols on them. While there is some truth in this (there is no difference in play), there is a difference in what people experience with the game - when we are talking about a counter based game and a miniatures based game.
But hex-counter games and miniatures play VERY
differently, one of the BIG differences in play is that
miniatures do not move from one discrete hex
to another; small differences in measurement matter.
Otherwise, I agree with Giles' excellent points.
-
Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
-
kuhrusty wrote: Patrick Carroll wrote: I made the mistake of turning a blind eye to an obvious fact: this is a miniatures game. Sure, you can play it with just painted bases, or with the foam-board "elements" that I made--but it's not the same. I don't get this. I don't see any difference between playing with cardboard rectangles with "Warband" written on them (the only way I've played) and playing a hex & counter game with cardboard squares with NATO symbols on them.
Giles and Gordon have already said pretty much what I'd say myself, but I'll add my personal slant anyway.
After numerous abortive ventures into miniatures over the years, I've learned a few things--mostly about myself, but also about the games. Above all, as Giles says above, miniatures wargames are mainly about miniatures. And as Gordon points out, hex-and-counter games are mainly about the hexes (and the counters placed therein).
By the time I got into DBA (and also bought HotT but never tried it), I had no intention of collecting or painting or using miniatures. I had learned enough to know that wasn't for me. So I made those foam-board "elements" and tried DBA (plus the Humberside variant that takes DBA up to AD 1900 or so). It was a fine game alright--no complaint there. But after playing several times, it looked and felt very bland and too abstract.
Something was missing. At first I wondered if it was rules detail. Did I want a more complicated game instead of such a relatively simple one? No, that wasn't it; the rules were fine.
After staring at the table (actually the space on the floor I was playing on) for a while, it hit me: it was missing the miniatures, of course! Those little models that I didn't want to use would have instantly brought the game to life. With them, all my little measurements with the ruler would've felt right also, as well as the fiddling with formation and alignment. Without the miniatures, my whole experience of the game suffered. It felt like I was doing things that shouldn't be necessary. And meanwhile the visual spectacle was anything but inspiring.
I've met people who do enjoy playing DBA with painted bases or wooden blocks or cardboard elements, so it can be done. It's just a matter of taste really. I can only guess that those people are much better than I am at visualizing what's not physically there. Also that they're more tolerant of the "approximating" or "fudging" inherent in ruler-based measurements (as opposed to discrete hexes on a game board).
I actually enjoyed DBA Online a lot more than the game I played offline. And it was probably because of the graphic images in DBAOL, which look a lot like miniatures. Incidentally the measurements in the online game are also precise, since they have to be for computer play (the elements sort of click into place, IIRC).
But when I tried Battleground: Fantasy Warfare, it still didn't work for me. Even with the top-view pictures on the cards, the game play just didn't feel right without actual miniatures. I wanted to go play a regular board game or card game instead.
I saw my first miniatures wargame in 1972. I made my first serious venture into miniatures in 1976. I tried in vain to get into miniatures a few times after that. But this experience with DBA, in 2000 or so, finally showed me just why miniatures wargaming is not for me.
-
Rusty Ballinger
United States
Arcata
California
-
Patrick Carroll wrote: It was a fine game alright--no complaint there. But after playing several times, it looked and felt very bland and too abstract.
Right, the part I don't get is how adding hexes around the cardboard squares makes a game look & feel less bland & abstract.
-
Patrick Carroll
United States
Carver
Minnesota
"If a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly." (GK Chesterton)
"That's how the light gets in." (Leonard Cohen)
-
kuhrusty wrote: Patrick Carroll wrote: It was a fine game alright--no complaint there. But after playing several times, it looked and felt very bland and too abstract. Right, the part I don't get is how adding hexes around the cardboard squares makes a game look & feel less bland & abstract.
Hardly anything is less visually appealing to me than a typical two-dimensional paper-and-cardboard hex-and-counter wargame. But such a game doesn't aim to be visually appealing, so I don't expect it to be.
Miniatures wargames, in contrast, seem to be designed entirely around the visual effect. All aspects of the rules converge toward producing that satisfying visual spectacle (while also simulating warfare reasonably well). So, when the visual effect is missing--as it was in my DBA game with the foam-board elements--you really notice it.
I didn't even personally want the visual spectacle, obviously; that's why I was using those foam-board elements. But still, just because of the way the game is designed, even I ended up missing the miniatures.
Maybe it's a matter of wargame design, or maybe it's just the expectations one comes in with. Maybe some of both. I don't know; I'm just trying to describe my own experience.
-
Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
Since DBA spans Miniature and Traditional Wargames categories,
and can be a Gateway to both; I thought of this Venn diagram of
some "crossover" games IMHO:
-
Gordon Stewart
United States
Bowie
20715
-
Was hoping that quick diagram would generate some discussion.
Like, a better game for Gateway + Wargame would be....
Anyway, since most DBA enthusiasts seem to jump from
two armies to TWENTY-TWO armies overnight; I thought
I'd record my goals while I'm still in between (8 full armies):
A. Complete a second Roman base camp and mark the undersides
so my matched historical Roman armies are complete.
B. Buy a few more Greeks(and paint them) so I can add to
my Spartan army to make a Trojan army as a match for
my Sea People.
C. Finish painting my Huns so I have all six armies for
a "Fall of Rome" campaign.
D. Get to the next WADBAG play-group (if announced far in advance).
E. Make enough Cavalry and a Warwagon to field a later Polish army.
F. Paint a few more Roman spears so I can field ANY Roman army.
G. Stop buying lead until what I have is painted!
-
|
|
Posted Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 am
