Michele Esmanech
Italy
Milano
Milano
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Let me strat off saying that this game, unlike some say, is 80% luck and only 20% decisions (I wouldn't actually say that it's a pure strategic game, per se).
Though, the game is fast paced, and fun, a good filler game, especially the iphone version.
Here are my personal thoughts:
1- choosing the X/Y die: I don't see why a person shouldn't take the highest die. Ok, you can give more points to the opponent. According to this last statement, a player should just choose a character with all d4s and no d20s...
2- but, even so, why would a person discard a powerful weapon before even beginning the match
3- which dice to choose to attack: this is the real decision part of the game. Choose the highest level dice, with the lowest result.
Example: among these dice and their result:
d4: 4
d6: 2
d8: 8
d10: 5
d12: 10
d20: 1
try to use the d20 as soon as you can, since using means you are going to reroll the die, and hopefully get a higher result.
Making a power attack or a skill attack is just a matter of how many dice you want to reroll: there is no preset strategy or tactics as how and when to make a skill or power attack.
In the above example: if you could make an attack using both the d10 and the d20, it would be grand, as these are both high level dice, that have low results.
4- which opponent dice to attack: similirly to what above stated, try to take high level dice, with low results.
If you were to attack the dice in the above example, try to get the d20 and the d10 first, since your opponent will try to reroll these ASAP, hoping for a higher result.
5- Shadow dice: get these before anything else: these are powerful (especially high level dice like d12 and d20)
6- poison dice: I rarely use characters that use poison dice. When your opponent has them, DO NOT take them, unless it's the only attack you can do. Leaving your opponent with that dice in the end will cost him a lot of points, and more than once, that -12 or even -20 has won me a game that, otherwise was lost.
Like I said: the game is a good filler, fast paced and all in all fun, but, if you're looking for a stratefy game, head somewhere else.
cheers
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Ted Alper
United States
Palo Alto
California
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I don't agree with a lot of what you've written.
Ikim wrote: Let me strat off saying that this game, unlike some say, is 80% luck and only 20% decisions (I wouldn't actually say that it's a pure strategic game, per se).
It's a mixture of luck and skill -- and over time the skill make a difference. Two equally strong buttons have a 50% chance of winning against each other; a player making good decisions can increase this to %65 or more, especially against someone who makes poor decisions. If you play repeatedly, the difference shows up and is statistically significant. It's like baseball -- the best team in the league wins 60-some percent of the time, the worst team 30-some-percent of the time, but over the season, the difference is quite clear.
Quote: 1- choosing the X/Y die: I don't see why a person shouldn't take the highest die. Ok, you can give more points to the opponent. According to this last statement, a player should just choose a character with all d4s and no d20s...
Totally wrong! The point is how much you need to capture to win.
Some of the strongest button recipes have very few total sides and
so they only need to capture a bit more than 1/3 of the opponents sides to win.
Choosing the right value for the swing die is an essential part of playing correctly -- if you don't see this, then it may be clear why you overestimate the luck involved.
[In games of Mantis vs. Yeti -- if Yeti sets his X swing die to 20, he has a very tough task ahead of him, but if he sets it to 18, things are MUCH easier!
That is, Mantis has a total of 64 sides; Yeti has 90 sides plus his X swing. If he sets the X to 20, he now has 110 sides to Mantis's 64 sides and will lose EVEN if he has one of his 30 sided dice left uncaptured at the end of the game [he'll have 64 points from capturing all of mantis's dice, plus 15 points for his uncaptured 30 sided die for a total of 79; but Mantis will have captured Yeti's OTHER dice for a total of 80 points]. But if Yeti sets his swing die to 18, he now has only 108 sides to mantis's 64 sides and can with with a 30 sided die left uncaptured [or any two other dice that add up to 30 sides or more].
This is very achievable!.
]
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2- but, even so, why would a person discard a powerful weapon before even beginning the match
BECAUSE the weapon comes at a cost in victory conditions that you can't afford. You need to know exactly which dice you have to have left at the end to win -- if most of your dice are 10-sided dice, and you've arranged things so that you need to win with 11 sides left uncaptured, you're giving your opponent a huge gift. Make the swing die 3 smaller and you'll be in much better position to win.
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3- which dice to choose to attack: this is the real decision part of the game. Choose the highest level dice, with the lowest result.
NOT ALWAYS!!!! it depends on what the opponents dice SUM to, it depends on how much you or your opponent needs to have left uncaptured in order to win. Often, you are trying to protect one of your own dice that rolled high and keep the other person from being able to take it by taking a die that would be essential fora skill attack. Or you're trying to take a die that leaves the other person with dice whose potential sums don't cover most of what your reroll is likely to be, so you have a good chance of rerolling to a number safe from a skill attack.
Quote:
Example: among these dice and their result:
d4: 4
d6: 2
d8: 8
d10: 5
d12: 10
d20: 1
try to use the d20 as soon as you can, since using means you are going to reroll the die, and hopefully get a higher result.
Well, I do agree in this example, your d20 is very vulnerable and you'd like to protect it; but -- does the other player also have 6 dice? if he or she can cover all the numbers 1-20 no matter what you reroll, then your priorities might need to change. And, as always -- you can't really answer this question without knowing how many total sides the other player has!
Quote:
Making a power attack or a skill attack is just a matter of how many dice you want to reroll: there is no preset strategy or tactics as how and when to make a skill or power attack.
this is false. [Well, maybe it depends on what you mean by "preset strategy" -- but it really depends on the context. If the other player has speed dice with medium or large numbers on them, for example, you generally want to AVOID rerolling a lot of dice unless their current values make them vulnerable.]
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In the above example: if you could make an attack using both the d10 and the d20, it would be grand, as these are both high level dice, that have low results.
4- which opponent dice to attack: similirly to what above stated, try to take high level dice, with low results.
If you were to attack the dice in the above example, try to get the d20 and the d10 first, since your opponent will try to reroll these ASAP, hoping for a higher result.
again, it depends. I do agree that you want to take the d20 early, since as the game progresses, it will be more likely to be safe from skill attacks if it rolls above your remaining dice. But at any moment, you have to look at the specific threat and your ability to respond to it. If you can cover most of the numbers from 1 to 20, you might have good reason to let the 20-sider go and focus on taking dice that threaten your dice with a skill attack.
Quote:
5- Shadow dice: get these before anything else: these are powerful (especially high level dice like d12 and d20)
again, it depends on the specific recipe and what value they rolled. I often think its better to leave shadow dice alone at the beginning.
Shadow dice can be very vulnerable, a shadow d20 with a value of 11
when all your dice have 10 sides or fewer is no threat at all; you may want to take it for the points, but it's usually best to leave it alone
for as long as possible and take his dangerous dice. It can often
be best to leave it completely uncaptured, since you'll then have more dice yourself at the end of the game [but it does depend on the specifics].
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6- poison dice: I rarely use characters that use poison dice. When your opponent has them, DO NOT take them, unless it's the only attack you can do. Leaving your opponent with that dice in the end will cost him a lot of points, and more than once, that -12 or even -20 has won me a game that, otherwise was lost.
Again, this is often totally wrong. You need to know exactly how many points you and or your opponent need to have left at the end of the game in order to win. If you're going to have to take the poison sooner or later ANYWAY [that is, he has 12 sides of poison but you need to win by 14 sides], then waiting makes no sense -- take it when its strategically necessary.
Similarly, if you can keep your 20 sided die safe by taking his poison die, you probably want to do it -- your goal is now to finish the game with the 20 sided die uncaptured, so everything else is subservient to that goal.
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Like I said: the game is a good filler, fast paced and all in all fun, but, if you're looking for a stratefy game, head somewhere else.
I think there's a lot of strategy here, but you may not be aware of it all.
[I have a blog -- buttonmen.blogspot.com -- devoted to buttonmen strategy. Some of the puzzles on that site are easy, but many are actually pretty subtle!]
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Bryce Nakagawa
United States
San Mateo
California
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Based on your 'strategy guide' I am led to believe that you have played only a small subset of the existing buttonmen.
There are numerous sets that add significantly to the strategic range of decisions and choices that you do not mention even in passing.
Could you list the buttonmen that you have played?
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Wayne Zeller
United States
Glendale
California
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Ikim wrote: this game, unlike some say, is 80% luck and only 20% decisions (I wouldn't actually say that it's a pure strategic game, per se).
You clearly haven't played much. I'm pretty certain that most regular players could wipe the table with you because they understand the strategies involved.
There is certainly an element of luck - you're rolling dice, after all. But a firm understanding of the strategies will ensure that, over time, you come out with a much higher win ratio than just 50%.
Even a player exclusively using Echo (a button that mirrors whatever dice her enemy has), an experienced player will come out on top against an inexperienced one. And that's only possible if strategy is key.
Your review reminds me of people that think poker is purely a game of chance. I love playing poker against those people.
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Ray
United States
Carpentersville
Illinois
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I agree this strategy is full of questionable advice (which is not that unusual as many people begin this way). Read the strategy articles at http://www.cheapass.com/bpu/bmstrat.html or simply read the swing die theory one to start and see an essential basic element of the games strategy: http://www.cheapass.com/bpu/strategy4.html
or Go play against some experts at http://www.buttonmen.dhs.org and you'll see how skillful and tough the game really is. (or just challenge their bot named "bmai")
Gads has it really been so many years since i was active on that site? It was my top site 5-10 years ago.
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Ted Alper
United States
Palo Alto
California
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wtrollkin2000 wrote:
And note that some of those articles are themselves not entirely correct!
(the one on countering speed dice has some particularly inaccurate information)
While it is possible to exaggerate how deep the game is -- each game resolves in just a few turns, and the difference between best play and adequate play may only be 10-15% chance in winning any particular round -- it can still take quite a lot of thinking and calculating for such a short game.
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