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Subject: Cylon Fleet = Humans Overwhelmed? rss

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Jason Burns
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I've played two games with the base game + Pegasus(minus New Caprica board) + Cylon Fleet.

Each time by about mid-game the cylon fleet was MASSIVELY overwhelming, and the revealed cylon players had a field day tearing up the humans. I'm curious who other people's play-throughs have gone? What have you done to deal with the massive cylon threat?

The first game I played was a full 6-player game, the second was a 5 player where both cylons revealed pre-sleeper (which may account for us being overwhelmed that game).
 
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Paul W
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Simply jumping away is no a much riskier strategy for the humans...they need to spend time whittling away at the cylon ships that jump in *before* they become an unstoppable horde.
 
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Josh
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My one Exodus game so far was a 4 player game with Cylon Fleet and Kobol, one "Cylons Win" Cylon Leader and one hidden Cylon; the game was close, and LONG with the Cylon Leader constantly pushing the Jump Track back, but the humans won with a ton of Population, 1 Morale, 1 Fuel, and Food somewhere in the Red.
It helped to have (human) CAG Starbuck (who was also admiral for most of the game), keeping just one Civvie Ship on the main board at all times with her 3 actions. (Always keep one out, to draw the Raiders towards it, and defend that one space area with vipers).

I was human Tory, with a personal goal of "10 raiders on the board" which surely happened many times, but we had so much Population (the penalty for not reaching the goal) that I always found something better to do with my actions.

(The other 2 characters were Caprica 6 with "Salvage their Equipment", and hidden Cylon Gaeta who never revealed)

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Todd Warnken
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The destination cards that put Cylons on the main board are now great for the humans since having a single basestar stops the pursuit track from moving.
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Stephen Clouse
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We've played two Cylon Fleet games so far. Yes, I know that two data points do not constitute a trend, but it's maybe worth noting that our experience has been quite atypical from what most report here. We've seen less ships on the board overall using Cylon Fleet.

In the second game the Cylon ships were so anemic that we actually stopped the game in order to re-read the rulebook and double-check some threads on here, just to make sure we weren't Doing It Wrong. We determined that we are in fact playing it all correctly, we just keep getting some magical combination of activation icons and placement die rolls that keep things in check. Here were some typical results:

* Empty fleet board, 4 crisis cards, 4 raider activations, all 7-8 (forward quadrant). A total of 4 raiders come over. Pilot owns them all with one Max Firepower.

* Two basestar activation icons put basestars in different areas. A third one (prior to pursuit track reaching the end) causes a lone basestar to move to the main board. Someone parked in Weapons Control gets an XO and blows it to hell before its friends join.

That sort of stuff was the norm for our Cylon Fleet plays. Needless to say, the humans won both games. Even a revealed Cylon can't seem to do much with the fleet unless the crisis deck also cooperates for getting some decent ship counts on the board.

I keep wondering why our experience is so atypical. I guess it's just bad (good?) luck.
 
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Matt Hirsch
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As Jozxyqk mentioned, keeping a single well-defended civvy ship in play forces all the raiders to move or fight vipers.

The CAG needs to use their CAG abilities to maximize viper actions. If the CAG can get some Executive Orders, they get a lot of actions to activate vipers.

Also, don't forget that the admiral has nukes!

I've played 3 times with Cylon Fleet, and each game has been different. The Cylons don't fully swarm every time, but when it happens, the swarm is managable. I've seen the humans win twice, and the cylons won once via Centurion boarding party.

-M
 
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Jason Burns
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fizzmore wrote:
Simply jumping away is no a much riskier strategy for the humans...they need to spend time whittling away at the cylon ships that jump in *before* they become an unstoppable horde.


This, I think was our problem.

Both games we had situations where it started to get a little too thick with cylon activity and we chose jump before our autojump rather than turn and fight. Cylon ships just kept on building... game over.

Also, I forgot to mention before, but in the FIRST game we played BOTH of our pilots wound up being Cylons (go figure).

I guess I'll just have to keep Adama's quote in mind:
"If you keep running from the school yard bully, he keeps on chasing you but the moment you turn around and stop you punch him really hard in a sensitive spot. He'll think twice about coming back."
 
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Jason Burns
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mongrel wrote:
As Jozxyqk mentioned, keeping a single well-defended civvy ship in play forces all the raiders to move or fight vipers.
-M


I'll have to try that too, thanks!
 
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ackmondual
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If you're going to finish the game quickly, then you won't have to worry about the CFB. "Quickly" for one game I noticed was jumping 3-3-2 (even without Cain's OPG). We also had extra dumb luck, like both cylons in a 5p drawing a disaster token (one cylon drew both of them!!) and executing themselves. Then both cylons getting eliminated during the trial/boxing phase.

Otherwise, as mentioned, you DO need to whittle away the raiders. In some cases, it may be a curse to jump away. Alternatively, it may be better to shoot at raiders first before they go to the CFB, as sometimes you have good opp to do so (pilots are already in place, they have a MF in hand which may be discarded by force later; Main Batteries won't risk vipers or civvies getting hit.). If you have Best Of The Best, don't be afraid to trim down the numbers. Really 2 reasons for that... 1) if raiders on MGB reaches 9 or higher, it's an auto-pass for cylons who use the Basestar Bridge location to roll a die for Galactica damage. 2) That many raiders on board reaches critical mass. There's only so many EMs you can play, and even vipers protecting civvies will get shot down soon enough.

I leave one civvy ship around b/c if you have 10 raiders and no civvies, they'll all shoot at Galactica instead. Rolling an 8 is difficult, but if the raiders are getting 10+ potshots every other turn or so, then they can damage Galactica/Pegasus quicker than you think.
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Michael Denman
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mongrel wrote:
The CAG needs to use their CAG abilities to maximize viper actions. If the CAG can get some Executive Orders, they get a lot of actions to activate vipers.


???

The CAG only adds one unmanned viper activation per turn. Executive Orders have nothing to do with it, other than having every player XO the CAG on their turn. That's a bit unlikely, eh?
 
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ackmondual
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Trump wrote:
mongrel wrote:
The CAG needs to use their CAG abilities to maximize viper actions. If the CAG can get some Executive Orders, they get a lot of actions to activate vipers.


???

The CAG only adds one unmanned viper activation per turn. Executive Orders have nothing to do with it, other than having every player XO the CAG on their turn. That's a bit unlikely, eh?


I'm assuming he meant the 2nd action on the CAG card where OPT, if you're piloting a viper, you get to do an unmanned viper activation followed an additional action.
 
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Michael Denman
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ackmondual wrote:
Trump wrote:
mongrel wrote:
The CAG needs to use their CAG abilities to maximize viper actions. If the CAG can get some Executive Orders, they get a lot of actions to activate vipers.


???

The CAG only adds one unmanned viper activation per turn. Executive Orders have nothing to do with it, other than having every player XO the CAG on their turn. That's a bit unlikely, eh?


I'm assuming he meant the 2nd action on the CAG card where OPT, if you're piloting a viper, you get to do an unmanned viper activation followed an additional action.


Er... yes... that is exactly what I was talking about...
 
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Paul W
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...and if you're having problems in space, what's not to like about two pilot actions plus a viper activation every time someone draws an XO?
 
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Matt Hirsch
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Trump wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Trump wrote:
mongrel wrote:
The CAG needs to use their CAG abilities to maximize viper actions. If the CAG can get some Executive Orders, they get a lot of actions to activate vipers.


???

The CAG only adds one unmanned viper activation per turn. Executive Orders have nothing to do with it, other than having every player XO the CAG on their turn. That's a bit unlikely, eh?


I'm assuming he meant the 2nd action on the CAG card where OPT, if you're piloting a viper, you get to do an unmanned viper activation followed an additional action.


Er... yes... that is exactly what I was talking about...


Yes, I was talking about the once-per-turn "activate a viper and take another action" action. Each time the CAG gets XO'd, the CAG essentially gets 3 actions instead of the usual 2. Throw in some Maximum Firepower and possibly Full Throttle, and the CAG can really clean things up.

Our group started to joke that CAG turns felt like a long turn of Dominion. "I take an action which gives me another action..."

-M
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Craig Rose
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I've played over a dozen games with the exodus expansion and can attest to being overwhelmed by the CFB.

I will say that in over half the games, there were two hidden cylons at the start of the game. Furthermore, we've learned that there is no reason for cylons to stay hidden with the CFB. It is simply too powerful for a cylon to sit at the CFB to spend an action to either advance their own track or push back the prepare for jump track. Then they place raiders. If you've got two cylons doing this from start, it is an almost guaranteed loss for the humans.

It is far to easy to damage Galactica. It's not difficult for cylons to prime the CFB with 6-9 raiders. Once they hit the main board, then the cylons have good odds to roll less than that number of raiders. And because the cylon player draws two damage tokens and chooses one, its pretty much guaranteed to send a human to sick bay.

Because there is no incentive for cylons to remain hidden, a very integral component of the game is lost.
 
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Michael Denman
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Tsugo wrote:
Because there is no incentive for cylons to remain hidden, a very integral component of the game is lost.


Interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit, but I had noted that the Ionian Nebula makes the Cylons LESS likely to reveal early and was liking that angle.
 
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Chris Young
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Trump wrote:
Tsugo wrote:
Because there is no incentive for cylons to remain hidden, a very integral component of the game is lost.


Interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit, but I had noted that the Ionian Nebula makes the Cylons LESS likely to reveal early and was liking that angle.


but the CFB makes it more likely that it never gets that far
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Joseph Cochran
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Tsugo wrote:
I will say that in over half the games, there were two hidden cylons at the start of the game. Furthermore, we've learned that there is no reason for cylons to stay hidden with the CFB. It is simply too powerful for a cylon to sit at the CFB to spend an action to either advance their own track or push back the prepare for jump track. Then they place raiders. If you've got two cylons doing this from start, it is an almost guaranteed loss for the humans.


What are your humans doing this whole time if they're not getting ready to deal with the cylon fleet? If the Cylons are revealed, then the human team can just collect cards, XO with complete trust, and use their pilots and locations to keep the board clean. Are the humans just waiting for the fleet or are they prepping (get the president ABF and Civilian Defense, get people on Command and get all of your vipers in space, get someone over to Pegasus if you've got it and blast the crap out of things). The Cylons only get two actions per 5-6 human actions. The CFB is good, but in our games (even with early reveals) it ain't all THAT.
 
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Allan Clements
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Using the basestar location to push the pursuit track forwards is actually not always the best decision, you can easily sync up the 2 tracks doing this and actually help the humans jump away from the fleet when it appears. Only a poor cylon would just choose that option every turn, not to mention as was said humans can just deal with the cylon ships easily enough since they dont have to worry about facing crises outside their own turns. Of course if they dont have a pilot it can be tricky but Pegasus can help with that, someone in command though can still escort civvies very efficiently.
 
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Chris Young
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There is no reason for them not to use that action pushing the jump track back one the pursiti track is simply a bonus and adding raiders is usually the other.

Almost every one here that Ive read that has won as human or even come close is because the Cylons did not make use of the CFB and or revealed late. Once you begin realizing how much more powerful you are as a revealed cylon on the CFB you will find yourself revealing at your first opportunity.

Im not saying it cant be done but the odds are severly against and when you realize it a crucial component of the game is lost (Cylons dont need to hide) Its not far off its just off enough to have lost game balance.

We have had over a dozen plays in our group and hundreds of base and pegasus plays before that we know you cant do things the same we know what you need to do (kill raiders) its just simply easier said than done.

Cylons revealing in round one means the President largely has no time to draw into useful cards (even assuming you have a pilot CAG) You have to have repair card to even use the new vipers and if your cylon buddys have that skill and start hording red and blue cards you have to waste actions going to the lab buying them even more time.
 
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Allan Clements
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if the CFB is about to jump in and the humans are about to jump, why on earth would a cylon player advance the pursuit track? That would just be extremely stupid since the cylon fleet would arrive and the humans would jump away. Well done to the cylon for wasting their action...

 
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Craig Rose
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jsciv wrote:
What are your humans doing this whole time if they're not getting ready to deal with the cylon fleet? If the Cylons are revealed, then the human team can just collect cards, XO with complete trust, and use their pilots and locations to keep the board clean. Are the humans just waiting for the fleet or are they prepping (get the president ABF and Civilian Defense, get people on Command and get all of your vipers in space, get someone over to Pegasus if you've got it and blast the crap out of things). The Cylons only get two actions per 5-6 human actions. The CFB is good, but in our games (even with early reveals) it ain't all THAT.

One would think, and believe you me, we have spent countless hours discussing "What the humans should do". And it's not like were newbs. My gaming group has easily over 100 plays with a fairly even mix of human and cylon wins.

But with exodus, I'm not talking about early reveals, I'm talking about cylons who reveal on their first turn (or before when XO'd). When this happens, you don't have the luxury of multiple choices anymore. You XO when you can, but you are XOing what you have to.

XO the president. Oh wait, can't, Galactica is already damaged twice and we need to XO someone who can repair.

XO the piolot. Oh wait, can't, there's a centurion on board, so XO someone to the armory.

When cylon players stay hidden, they usually do some helpful things for a portion of the game to avoid detection. With fleet activation cards, early reveals were uncommon, simply because there was no guarantee that there would be anything for the revealed cylon player to do other than use the Caprica location (which can be helpful to humans since the prepare for jump icon takes effect). There could be several turns with no cylon ships on the board, making the cylon fleet space useless. Since the CFB, Caprica is only used by cylons to play super crisis cards.

While I agree that the CFB gives the cylon players more options, I still contend that it takes away the necessity for cylon players to remain unrevealed. This significantly imbalances the game, but more importantly, takes away the suspicion and paranoia from the game, which was it's most important element.

A dozen games is hardly an ideal sample, Out of those, the humans have only won twice. In games where cylons revealed in the first turn, the game didn't even reach the Ionian Nebula phase. I even managed to win a 5-player game as the only cylon. The other "You Are a Cylon" card was never drawn. I revealed early and only used the CFB and the Cylon Fleet location. That game didn't even make it to the Ionian Nebula.

Kamakaze wrote:
if the CFB is about to jump in and the humans are about to jump, why on earth would a cylon player advance the pursuit track? That would just be extremely stupid since the cylon fleet would arrive and the humans would jump away. Well done to the cylon for wasting their action...


A cylon player wouldn't. They wait until the fleet jumps, then they use the CFB to bring everything back out when the Prepare for Jump track has been reset. In cases like that, the cylon players would use a super crisis, use two other options on the CFB, or use the regular Cylon Fleet location depending on the situation. Hardly a wasted turn. Well done cylon.

Don't get me wrong. My group loves Galactica. We play it multiple times a week, even multiple times a day. But try it. If you receive a you are a cylon card at the start of the game, reveal on your first turn, or before if XOed. Maximize your options. If there are 6 or more raiders on the main board, use the CFB to try to damage galactica, since it's first turn, chances are the jump track has only moved one or two spaced, use the CFB to try to knock it back, or at least start moving the CFB track forward to get ready for after the first Galactica jump. If it's better to use the Cylon Fleet location, use that. Also, with a first turn reveal, you or guaranteed to get your super crisis card. If playing with Pegasus, spend a turn to get a second super crisis card. With a first turn reveal, you're going to have time to play it at some point. Just watch how quickly those hands of skill cards are depleted when two cylons spend their next two turns playing super crisis cards.

I don't mind winning or losing when playing either side, but with repeated plays of Exodus, the experience has become significantly less fun, again, for both sides.
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Allan Clements
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If there is a centurion on board why would you go to the armory? The cylons arent pushing it because apparantly they are always on the cylon basestar and if heavy raiders are getting activated by crisis cards then fleet isn't attacking us.

I have only played 3 games so far but I havent had this much fun with the game since we first played the base game.

It is always optional if your group don't like it.
 
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Craig Rose
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Kamakaze wrote:
If there is a centurion on board why would you go to the armory? The cylons arent pushing it because apparantly they are always on the cylon basestar and if heavy raiders are getting activated by crisis cards then fleet isn't attacking us.

I have only played 3 games so far but I havent had this much fun with the game since we first played the base game.

It is always optional if your group don't like it.

Apparently, you misunderstood my post. Nowhere did I say that the only thing the cylons were doing is using the CFB. The CFB is quite powerful, but still situational. What they CFB has done is give a "start of the game" cylon no reason to stay hidden. I can also say that the first three games with Exodus were incredibly fun. However, the subsequent nine games are showing this element to be more and more evident. I'm also aware that the expansion is modular. I've read the tips and suggestions provided by others. Trust me, we've tried them or discussed them ad nauseum.
 
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stephen biggs
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itsburnsie wrote:
I've played two games with the base game + Pegasus(minus New Caprica board) + Cylon Fleet.

Each time by about mid-game the cylon fleet was MASSIVELY overwhelming, and the revealed cylon players had a field day tearing up the humans. I'm curious who other people's play-throughs have gone...

Our 1st game of exodus went exactly that way.
2nd & 3rd games the humans deliberately destroyed cylon ships in preference to jumping away. And whilst it was never "easy" for the humans, they were able to stay in contention for a win. Personally I find these closly faught games, to be a much better balence than the human "walk-overs" that can occur with the Pegasus expansion.
 
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