Don Dorrance
Canada
BRAMPTON
Ontario
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I have played this a few times, and my opponents who prefer to play the allies, repeatedly sortie their fogs of war from a port that they entered. (Post game discussions, and successful search attempts.)
When a fog of war enters port, may it later sortie? and if it does, does it create 2 fogs if it leaves without being spotted?
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Dean Zadiraka
United States
Toledo
Ohio
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A fog of war block may NOT sortie.
The only time fog of war blocks are created on a sortie is when an actual Allied fleet sorties and is not spotted. See rule section 7.8.
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Don Dorrance
Canada
BRAMPTON
Ontario
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Hey I agree with you, but my opponent says that since the fog never left the map board (even though it is in port) he doesn't need to remove it from play, hence 7.8 doesn't apply, since he isn't adding a fog to the map board. (This was a big thing in the west indies where other than Havana he didn't have port display boxes.)
So you are saying that Fogs that enter port ARE removed from play, and added back to the allied pool of Fogs? - Correct?
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Phil Fry
United States
Toledo
Ohio
My father (circa 1945). He navigated B-24's (5thAF 22ndBG) in the Pacific Theater.
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dorrdon wrote: So you are saying that Fogs that enter port ARE removed from play, and added back to the allied pool of Fogs? - Correct?
Dean is correct. Once Fog of War enter port they go back in the pool. Of course, nothing in the rules forces a Fog of War to enter a port.
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Gosh, I am full of questions today. The Living Rules forbid Fogs to sortie, but not to enter port, letting the Allied player keep them around as a deception exercise. Indeed, this must permit them to enter port, because they could only be forbidden to sortie if they could get in a position to do so, if you see what I mean.
Please, which is the intended rule?
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Dean Zadiraka
United States
Toledo
Ohio
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Yes they can enter a port.
Then they just can't do anything except to sortie when a real force sorties and is undetected when it sorties.
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Radz wrote: Yes they can enter a port. Then they just can't do anything except to sortie when a real force sorties and is undetected when it sorties.
This matches neither the statement from the designer above nor the Living Rules, so it seems unlikely to me.
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Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
I seez u be makin ur beeg move
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It's all a question of semantics. Dean is technically correct under his and Phil Fry's working definition of the word "sortie" as it applies to Fog of War, which is that the process of a Fog of War being placed with a real fleet, as the real fleet sorties undetected, is a "sortie". To me, it is not really a sortie that the FoW are doing, instead they are just joining a real fleet that has already sortied.
OK I'm sure that didn't answer your real question. Let me try to address that, as follows:
FoW can enter a port. FoW can sit in a port. FoW cannot actually sortie (ever, according to my definition of "sortie"), BUT, when a real fleet sorties undetected from the port the FoW are in, the FoW can be taken off the map, and then placed with the real fleet that just sortied.
I'm curious to know if that answers your question.
Also Phil's statement "Once Fog of War enter port they go back in the pool" was written before we reached the final version of the Living Rules, and so is not completely correct. They certainly can go into the pool upon arriving at a port, but they don't have to, per the Living Rules.
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chargetheguns wrote: It's all a question of semantics. Dean is technically correct under his and Phil Fry's working definition of the word "sortie" as it applies to Fog of War, which is that the process of a Fog of War being placed with a real fleet, as the real fleet sorties undetected, is a "sortie".
I think, then, I owe Dean an apology, since I read his reply as less considered than it was.
Quote: To me, it is not really a sortie that the FoW are doing, instead they are just joining a real fleet that has already sortied.
... although I agree with you. :-)
Quote: FoW can enter a port. FoW can sit in a port. FoW cannot actually sortie (ever, according to my definition of "sortie"), BUT, when a real fleet sorties undetected from the port the FoW are in, the FoW can be taken off the map, and then placed with the real fleet that just sortied.
I'm curious to know if that answers your question.
Yes, I believe so.
On reflection, there is a lurking question here, actually. When the Allied player removes a Fog, does he reveal it as a Fog a) always or b) if there is no mechanism by which a real fleet could be removed at that point in the Sequence of Play or c) never, relying on the British player to notice if case b) applies? I favour b).
I'm afraid I used to play Star Fleet Battles.
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Alan Richbourg
United States
Arlington
Texas
I seez u be makin ur beeg move
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I prefer option c. For one thing its slightly faster, and time to play is a real issue in this game. It's usually easy for the British player to figure out what is going on, in the case of FoW that have entered a port.
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I am not convinced it is faster. Consider first the case where the Allied player removes a Fog at a time when a real fleet might be removed - eg when two Allied blocks are in the same port. In either option b or c, the Allied player just appears to be rearranging ships in the port - no faster or slower.
But now consider the case when a real fleet could not be removed - eg the Allied player removes a Fog mid-ocean in order to use it as part of a sortie. In option b, he just shows it to the British player as he removes it, job's done. In option c, the British player says "what?" and then "oh, that was a Fog". I think that's slower.
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