$3.00
Recommend
45 
 Thumb up
 Hide
102 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: DG Folio Series..... what do you think? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Bob Schindler
United States
St. Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Guys, Wine not bad war games gets better with age!


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
There are several problems with these games. The big two for me are the differential combat system, and the fog of war rules.

Differential combat systems rarely work properly. For example,compare a battle involving a strength '2' attacking '1' against a '10' attacking '9'. Both would be resolved on the +1 column.

The fog of war rules are poorly presented, and are unclear even after errata and FAQ have been provided. The basic problem seems to be trying to compress the rules into as few pages as possible. The fact that the musket and saber series rules have generated 15 pages of errata and questions bears this out.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@@.1dd4b2cd!enclosure=.1...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich Trevino
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
mb
A forthcoming "simple" version of the Horse & Musket folio rules? From the publisher:

Quote:
The next group of folios includes an update of the M&S rules (can also be found on the e-rules page) for two new games as well as the first game of a Quick Play version (4 pages). There will also be a variation of the M&S rules titled Pike & Shot for two 16th century battles.

Full information will appear in the Spring Dispatch in about four weeks.


http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee6b2cd/16708

Hope that means we'll be able to apply the shorter rules to all the games. We'll see.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
flag msg tools
I have the Saipan game and the Arnhem game.

The best thing you can use them for is the maps - replace with your SPI versions, use the SPI rules and Chits and you have the games the way they should have been redone - just a graphical update.

-------------

The Arnhem game's great Flaws after DG redo:

1. The victory conditions do NOT require a Line of Communications or supply for the Allies...All you need to do is hold Arnhem to win.

2. The Artillery units are gone, all massed into support chits - you randomly draw them, but you can use them anywhere - so the artillery has unlimited range and can contribute to any situation on the map.

And the basic system is poorly done and the rules are like first draft suckage.

Was working on a review, but stopped because of the crapiness of it all.

So, I just use the maps with the old rules, chits and have a great time.


8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wilhammer wrote:


So, I just use the maps with the old rules, chits and have a great time.




I vote that this is best idea of the day! I couldn't help myself and bought a copy of Arnhem and did I regret that! The maps and counters are really really nice, but the game is seriously MEH...

Too bad I can't reuse the new counters with the old rules. But the map is better than nothing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Tyson
United States
Landing
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proudly annoying Capitalists since 1959
Cuba
Santa Clara
flag msg tools
Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned
mbmbmbmbmb
Noel Wright wrote:
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.


Yeah I saw your response to the review. It has been changed accordingly.
I still feel that add nothing to very little to the game.

Cheers, Haring
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Vista
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Haring wrote:
Noel Wright wrote:
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.


Yeah I saw your response to the review. It has been changed accordingly.
I still feel that add nothing to very little to the game.

Cheers, Haring


I was replying to Brian Blad, actually.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I would guess that revenues from the newsstand editions of S&T and World at War subsidize the gaming business, to some degree.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Cooper
United States
Syracuse
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I bought the folios early on but was disappointed. If they were published with thin boxes to prevent the pieces and die from spilling, as opposed to the folio slip they might be worth purchasing. But for the price, an unboxed game mini game probably not worth it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.L. Robert
United States
Sherman Oaks
California
flag msg tools
designer
Follow me for wargames!
mbmbmbmbmb
Garfink wrote:
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.


Plus, D-Day at Omaha Beach wouldn't be reselling at above retail if it were a steaming pile.

They do come up with the occasional gem. And their monster game reprints do have an audience, even if they don't address the ages-old issues that people have long-known about.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
J.L.Robert wrote:
Garfink wrote:
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.


Plus, D-Day at Omaha Beach wouldn't be reselling at above retail if it were a steaming pile.

They do come up with the occasional gem. And their monster game reprints do have an audience, even if they don't address the ages-old issues that people have long-known about.


Agree, also its really nice to have reprints (with cosmetic improvements) of old OOP games EVEN if they didn't mess with the rules and address problems... its good that we can buy these classics again. (This begs the question as to why they MESS with the folio series rules though... I am going to try to mess with the rules to make the games more fun and be able to use them nice new counters.)

Not to mention that there has been some very good issues of S&T of late.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Vista
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Garfink wrote:


Agree, also its really nice to have reprints (with cosmetic improvements) of old OOP games EVEN if they didn't mess with the rules and address problems... its good that we can buy these classics again.


That's the thing, though. They aren't the classics. They are messed-up versions. I am actively discouraged from buying the games because of my bad experiences.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawrence Hung
Hong Kong
Wan Chai
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
heath p avery wrote:

And yes ST lately has been outstanding...in fact the last 2 years I havent played a dud game...


1940: What If Germany Went East? is a bit dude. I have the impression those by Ty are a bit dude, while those by Joseph are not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Lawrence Hung wrote:
heath p avery wrote:

And yes ST lately has been outstanding...in fact the last 2 years I havent played a dud game...


1940: What If Germany Went East? is a bit dude. I have the impression those by Ty are a bit dude, while those by Joseph are not.


Yet Joe Miranda gave us Coral Sea solitaire...

No designer has a perfect track record, although some have a lot more hits than misses.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawrence Hung
Hong Kong
Wan Chai
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nyhotep wrote:


Yet Joe Miranda gave us Coral Sea solitaire...

No designer has a perfect track record, although some have a lot more hits than misses.


That game has more thing to do with the counters errata but less so with the rules and system, hasn't it?

Obviously you can't expect everything good from the same designer - but that's not my point.surprise
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M St
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
Lawrence Hung wrote:
nyhotep wrote:


Yet Joe Miranda gave us Coral Sea solitaire...


That game has more thing to do with the counters errata but less so with the rules and system, hasn't it?

No. The system is absurd. The rules are merely badly structured and written, but the system is really bad. It's just that the counter thing kept most people from getting there in the first place.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
M St
Australia
Unspecified
flag msg tools
designer
nyhotep wrote:
There are several problems with these games. The big two for me are the differential combat system, and the fog of war rules.

Differential combat systems rarely work properly. For example,compare a battle involving a strength '2' attacking '1' against a '10' attacking '9'. Both would be resolved on the +1 column.

Actually, for Napoleonic times that sort of makes sense although more at corps or army level than at brigade level. The problem is more that the rules are still too unbloody (despite the designer's notes claiming the opposite). When playing Leipzig you find that it is virtually impossible to come to grips with an enemy who just keeps falling back.

Quote:
The fog of war rules are poorly presented, and are unclear even after errata and FAQ have been provided.

Also, the special combat results are really fiddly and clearly not not thought through completely. I don't remember if all the Musket & Saber games use the same CRT but on the Leipzig CRT there is one result that requires the defender to execute a morale check and retreat in case of success. In case of failure he needs to execute the result in parentheses which is... a retreat.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marcus
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Does this mean that my copy of Chickamauga: River of Death is fated to remain on BGG Marketplace forever?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
monstrooper wrote:
Does this mean that my copy of Chickamauga: River of Death is fated to remain on BGG Marketplace forever?


To be honest, this is the only musket and pike game I have played. The map is good, the counters are ok, but playing it I kept wondering why it was necessary to have to keep referring to the rules so often. A game with this footprint should be a quick, fun diversion, not a chore.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Hoyt
United States
Durango
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
monstrooper wrote:
Does this mean that my copy of Chickamauga: River of Death is fated to remain on BGG Marketplace forever?


Not if you bundle it with a $20..
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
nyhotep wrote:
To be honest, this is the only musket and pike game I have played. The map is good, the counters are ok, but playing it I kept wondering why it was necessary to have to keep referring to the rules so often. A game with this footprint should be a quick, fun diversion, not a chore.
I played the Shiloh game and had the same problem. I think it is because I was playing some older game that I was familiar with than the game I had in front of me. There are a lot of subtle (and some not so subtle) differences between the 'classic' Blue and Gray system and this newer system. Once I changed my focus to the game I had in front of me it started to click and became more fun.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.