Recommend
45 
 Thumb up
 Hide
102 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: DG Folio Series..... what do you think? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
J.L. Robert
United States
Sherman Oaks
California
flag msg tools
designer
Follow me if you want to play wargames!
mbmbmbmbmb
Peso Pete wrote:
I don't want to seem too critical of this particular series of games. When they were published last year, I went to an LAX convention and bought all of the games in the series in a package deal directly from Decision Games. The Pre-20th century SPI quads did not need extensive redesigning. Decision Games didn't need to "reinvent the wheel" because most of the quad games were already well-done games. In my humble opinion, what was needed was:

1) Graphics Update
2) A better and more nuanced CRT
3) Errata incorporated
4) A simple process to account for morale
5) A simple rule to account for changing initiative and uncertainty

What we got was a different, and much more complex and time-consuming, system that isn't necessarily better which, for me, is disappointing.

However (and to put a positive spin on all of this), Decision Games can still get this right. All that is needed is a clearly-written 2nd edition rulebook that will simplify and clarify the existing design to make it faster and easier to play which would be more in the spirit of what these games were supposed to be in the first place. Eric Harvey has done a great job on CSW about answering questions across multiple folders there, so at least one guy at DG wants to get it right. Let's hope they succeed.



As an owner of many of the old SPI quads, I was hoping that these games would re-introduce wargamers to the quick-play, fun folio games that I have difficulty finding opponents for. But, as Pete alluded to, DG chose to fix what weren't broken, leaving a hodge-podge of games that are uneven in their execution.

Since I'm not a hasty person, I'm kinda glad I held onto my quads. But I'll still root for DG to find a way to make these types of games accessible to wargamers once again.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proudly annoying Capitalists since 1959
Cuba
Santa Clara
flag msg tools
Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned
mbmbmbmbmb
I played DMZ again, and decided that it was time for a not so positive review.

Enjoy zombie
DMZ - A not so positive review

Cheers, Haring

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ian Wakeham
United Kingdom
Chester
Cheshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
For those still unsure about this series, I've found that the Decision Games Folio Series family page here on BGG is a useful portal. You can see links to all the games and forums in one place. You can also sort the games by average rating: although there haven't been that many ratings so far, Crusader: Battle for Tobruk is coming out on top at the moment.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom Russell
United States
Dearborn
Michigan
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I've only played Leipzig: Napoleon Encircled. I picked it up at Origins; the guy at the booth sold it to me as "an old SPI game". But, as others have remarked, with their Musket & Saber sub-series at the very least, it is way too fiddily and full of holes and still-unanswered errata (there's a general, for example, who has no start-up hex, and it's fairly easy for the French player to plug all entry hexes in the first couple of turns, making the game an unwinnable slog for the Allied player).

I don't think I would've been so disappointed if I hadn't spent the whole time driving home to Michigan beaming about the reprinted SPI title I was about to add to my collection.

I don't mind complex rules, if the play experience is rewarding commensurately. I will say that I found the choices in combat and the morale check mechanism very interesting, even if I had to make a flow-chart to (maybe) understand it:

(... and, of course, I screwed up one of the rules.)

I find the "Fortunes of War" mechanic extremely uninspiring and, well, "gamey", and as someone who does most of my wargaming solitaire (especially wargaming that's not of the block variety), I found both it and the "tactics" feature to be pretty annoying. I know from watching a couple of your videos a while back, Eric, that you do most of your gaming solitaire, and so I'm not sure how much enjoyment you'd get out of it, at least as written.

I was considering trying to find the original SPI rules for their Leipzig, but both the scale of the new game and many of the particulars are markedly different, which made me wonder why say it was an old SPI game in the first place, except to get me to buy it.yuk Being that I don't like the idea of having paid money for a game I don't enjoy, I've been thinking the last few days of houseruling it into a game more befitting my tastes, and, whoop, here comes this thread.

So, that's my two or three cents on it. My experience has kinda soured me on Decision Games, because I'm unlikely to buy more than one or two wargames a year. YMMV, and from what I hear, the WWII stuff is much better-implemented. IIRC, I believe that
Marco Arnaudo
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
flag msg tools
"My spoon is too big!"
mbmbmbmbmb
did a review of one of those, Crusader: Battle for Tobruk.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Irsik
United States
Clearfield
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I posted on this thread that I had negatively reviewed Aachen and I swore that I would not touch the DG folio series again. Well, I was in a store and saw Stones River staring at me and since I'm an ACW buff plus I have fond memories of the old Chickamauga game, so I bought it. Big mistake.

The problem is that the game is just too busy with layers of rules that really serve no purpose. What should be a simple, straightforward slugfest gets bogged down with the new C&C and combat systems. Halfway through the game I had lost all interest. The old Blue & Gray system was great because the games were over in a few hours, simple to grasp, and pretty good value for the money. I have no idea why the games couldn't have used the old systems.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Boyes
United States
Bothell
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I had a good time with Saipan. I played a few turns at Conquest NW last year with a DG rep that was demoing it. I should own this one.

The ones I own, Stones River, Chickamauga, and Leipzig, I consider to be a mess. It definitely is not a quick to learn system. My opponent and I wrapped it up and put it away after reading about Lines of Retreat and Safe Lines of Retreat, or whatever. And there were all kinds of combat options. This is not a simple game and it definitely could use a rules re-write.

The physical components were fine. I just didn't like the 8 page rules presentation.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Schindler
United States
St. Charles
Missouri
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Guys, Wine not bad war games gets better with age!


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darrell Pavitt
United Kingdom
Unspecified
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
There are several problems with these games. The big two for me are the differential combat system, and the fog of war rules.

Differential combat systems rarely work properly. For example,compare a battle involving a strength '2' attacking '1' against a '10' attacking '9'. Both would be resolved on the +1 column.

The fog of war rules are poorly presented, and are unclear even after errata and FAQ have been provided. The basic problem seems to be trying to compress the rules into as few pages as possible. The fact that the musket and saber series rules have generated 15 pages of errata and questions bears this out.

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?233@@.1dd4b2cd!enclosure=.1...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rich Trevino
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
mb
A forthcoming "simple" version of the Horse & Musket folio rules? From the publisher:

Quote:
The next group of folios includes an update of the M&S rules (can also be found on the e-rules page) for two new games as well as the first game of a Quick Play version (4 pages). There will also be a variation of the M&S rules titled Pike & Shot for two 16th century battles.

Full information will appear in the Spring Dispatch in about four weeks.


http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@@.ee6b2cd/16708

Hope that means we'll be able to apply the shorter rules to all the games. We'll see.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Avery
Australia
Mount Keira
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Indeed the older 1970s SPI Folios seem to have stood up and are amongst my all time favs for light but meaty enough to sate the appetite wargames.....
I started the excitement with an early thread when the 18 or so new folios came out.....I have bought 9-10 of them so far and I agree 100%, the NEW rulebook wasnt as clean or clear as I had hoped.....
On a positive note, it was wonderful to see a massive new batch of simplier games come out on great topics....
I hold out hope with the new batch due soon I hope...with the rulebook fixed for Mand S....and I am very very excited about 2 new folios with pike and shot battles........lets hope theres at least 1 more ancient world battle and god forbid 1-2 great medieval battles series
I still stand happy and I feel the modern Fire and movement series is fine and quite well designed
Cheers
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Wood
United States
Eden
North Carolina
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I have the Saipan game and the Arnhem game.

The best thing you can use them for is the maps - replace with your SPI versions, use the SPI rules and Chits and you have the games the way they should have been redone - just a graphical update.

-------------

The Arnhem game's great Flaws after DG redo:

1. The victory conditions do NOT require a Line of Communications or supply for the Allies...All you need to do is hold Arnhem to win.

2. The Artillery units are gone, all massed into support chits - you randomly draw them, but you can use them anywhere - so the artillery has unlimited range and can contribute to any situation on the map.

And the basic system is poorly done and the rules are like first draft suckage.

Was working on a review, but stopped because of the crapiness of it all.

So, I just use the maps with the old rules, chits and have a great time.


8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Wilhammer wrote:


So, I just use the maps with the old rules, chits and have a great time.




I vote that this is best idea of the day! I couldn't help myself and bought a copy of Arnhem and did I regret that! The maps and counters are really really nice, but the game is seriously MEH...

Too bad I can't reuse the new counters with the old rules. But the map is better than nothing.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Tyson
United States
Landing
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Proudly annoying Capitalists since 1959
Cuba
Santa Clara
flag msg tools
Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, Nor hell a fury like a woman scorned
mbmbmbmbmb
Noel Wright wrote:
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.


Yeah I saw your response to the review. It has been changed accordingly.
I still feel that add nothing to very little to the game.

Cheers, Haring
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Vista
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Haring wrote:
Noel Wright wrote:
>The support chit rules are overly complex and restrictive, you have to use the worst first and only get to use the best..ummm..pretty much never..

Not to be defending the system, necessarily, but you're misinterpreting that particular rule. Some turns, a player will be allowed less than the number of support chits for his side. At the beginning of the turn, he chooses from worst to best when creating his pool of available chits for that turn. After that, he can use whichever chits he wants that are within the pool.


Yeah I saw your response to the review. It has been changed accordingly.
I still feel that add nothing to very little to the game.

Cheers, Haring


I was replying to Brian Blad, actually.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Noel Wright
United States
El Dorado
Arkansas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I would guess that revenues from the newsstand editions of S&T and World at War subsidize the gaming business, to some degree.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Don Cooper
United States
Syracuse
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I bought the folios early on but was disappointed. If they were published with thin boxes to prevent the pieces and die from spilling, as opposed to the folio slip they might be worth purchasing. But for the price, an unboxed game mini game probably not worth it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.L. Robert
United States
Sherman Oaks
California
flag msg tools
designer
Follow me if you want to play wargames!
mbmbmbmbmb
Garfink wrote:
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.


Plus, D-Day at Omaha Beach wouldn't be reselling at above retail if it were a steaming pile.

They do come up with the occasional gem. And their monster game reprints do have an audience, even if they don't address the ages-old issues that people have long-known about.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Lai
Hong Kong
Happy Valley
None
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
J.L.Robert wrote:
Garfink wrote:
Neopeius wrote:
RobTys wrote:
Decision Games: We take good games and make them worse!

laugh


I keep hearing this. And seeing this. So how are they still in business, and why haven't they changed their practices?


I think its a generalization with some truth in it... Their new and improved Totaler Kreig & RAF are both excellently done.


Plus, D-Day at Omaha Beach wouldn't be reselling at above retail if it were a steaming pile.

They do come up with the occasional gem. And their monster game reprints do have an audience, even if they don't address the ages-old issues that people have long-known about.


Agree, also its really nice to have reprints (with cosmetic improvements) of old OOP games EVEN if they didn't mess with the rules and address problems... its good that we can buy these classics again. (This begs the question as to why they MESS with the folio series rules though... I am going to try to mess with the rules to make the games more fun and be able to use them nice new counters.)

Not to mention that there has been some very good issues of S&T of late.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heath Avery
Australia
Mount Keira
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Im alone here but....I still think we gotta at least be thankful someone put out a pile of new games...yes they arent exactly the best designed games....I for one was quite dissapointed with my fav periods...musket and sabre....but lets hope that the 2nd batch will sort out the bad rules and make us all happy....besides theres 2 new pike and shot folios...and lets hope 1-2 new ancient world battles, and hey maybe a empires a t war folio !!! Heres hoping.......and with some fixs...the Fire and movement ones might work...
And yes ST lately has been outstanding...in fact the last 2 years I havent played a dud game...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Vista
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Garfink wrote:


Agree, also its really nice to have reprints (with cosmetic improvements) of old OOP games EVEN if they didn't mess with the rules and address problems... its good that we can buy these classics again.


That's the thing, though. They aren't the classics. They are messed-up versions. I am actively discouraged from buying the games because of my bad experiences.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lawrence Hung
Hong Kong
Wan Chai
Hong Kong
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
heath p avery wrote:

And yes ST lately has been outstanding...in fact the last 2 years I havent played a dud game...


1940: What If Germany Went East? is a bit dude. I have the impression those by Ty are a bit dude, while those by Joseph are not.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.