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Subject: isotropic flagging rss

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Rob Neuhaus
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OTOH, please do add constructive suggestions to making the point counter more fair, an opportunity that was completely missed out on last time.
 
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Kev Hadman
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theory wrote:
yukonhorror wrote:
I guess there is no official channels (as there may not have been a need before), but maybe after my email, the site admin will appoint some key players (ones who are on a lot like theory) to review flag cases and see if they require action or are just attempts to get someone into trouble for petty reasons.

Dear God, why would you volunteer me for that

I think it's unfortunate that you ran into such an unpleasant opponent, but I've almost never had such experiences on Isotropic thus far. If it really becomes a problem, I would recommend using the same approach I did when I played lots of Tichu on BSW: create a Google Doc of your personal "blacklist", and share it (if requested) with your friends.


cause your name is the only one I can remember . Sorry. Yeah, I'll just avoid him. and others in future.
 
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Dave Goldthorpe
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If there is a problem here that needs a solution then perhaps it should be an automated ignore function that creates a local ignore list on your PC. You then wouldn't see their name on the list, wouldn't see their chatter, and any invites to games from/with them would be silently blocked.

For the number of bad cases it could be better for users to ignore people manually.
 
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Myke Madsen
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rrenaud wrote:
OTOH, please do add constructive suggestions to making the point counter more fair, an opportunity that was completely missed out on last time.


I like that at least one point tracker announces itself. One opponent I played against who used it didn't like that (or so he said). Apparently he wanted to use it secretly.

I also wish that the point trackers didn't track the number of cards in each player's deck. I applaud the Isotropic interface for how it respects the rules of Dominion by visually estimating deck/discard size while exactly counting the number of cards in your draw deck. To me that simulates the experience of playing the game in person very well. Showing an exact card count for every deck, especially with Gardens in play, seems unfair.

I know you can't prevent it, but it would seem that you could make a good point tracker and NOT provide that information, so people could choose to use the "more fair" point tracker.
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Myke Madsen
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DaveGold wrote:
If there is a problem here that needs a solution then perhaps it should be an automated ignore function that creates a local ignore list on your PC. You then wouldn't see their name on the list, wouldn't see their chatter, and any invites to games from/with them would be silently blocked.

For the number of bad cases it could be better for users to ignore people manually.


I'm wondering if you could build a Chrome extension to do this. I'm just not sure where the persistent data (ignore list) would live.

Edit: I guess HTML5 supports local storage. I may just have to tackle this project!
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Patrick
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IMO the designer should find a way to break all the point counting extensions.
If you can't do it in your head you shouldn't do it at all.
It isn't like you have a piece of paper in a game of Dominion in real life is it?
 
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Myke Madsen
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corkysru wrote:
IMO the designer should find a way to break all the point counting extensions.


I think that's an arms race that Isotropic's designer would lose in the end. I'd rather that his time and effort be spent elsewhere.
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Matthias Lamerz
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corkysru wrote:
IMO the designer should find a way to break all the point counting extensions.

Its impossible to break all point counting extensions, because they can always adapt. What you buy is public information so there will always be ways to calculate the points from that.
 
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Dave G
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The point-counting extensions are the thing that finally pushed me off of isotropic altogether. It's simply a matter of taste, though. You can't expect the site designer to take an interest.
 
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Patrick
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Honestly this is far less annoying than having so many people sitting there being "afk". If they aren't playing or looking GTFO!!!!
I wish they would get auto kicked or something after 10 minutes or something like that.
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Kev Hadman
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corkysru wrote:
Honestly this is far less annoying than having so many people sitting there being "afk". If they aren't playing or looking GTFO!!!!
I wish they would get auto kicked or something after 10 minutes or something like that.


I especially hate it when the server has maximum amount of players on it and half of them are afk when I finally get in. Why sign in if you aren't going to play, I don't understand that.
 
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Jersey Smorth
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tlloyd wrote:
I am completely in favor of this. I played a game once where my opponent (for now I'll avoid naming names) realized he was going to lose and began stalling in the hope that I'd just resign and he could get the win (he was ranked above me and seemed quite offended that I would beat him). He knew that waiting too long between moves would let me auto-resign him, so he was taking about a minute and a half between every single click. He dragged the game on for an extra thirty minutes this way, the whole time spouting off pretty offensive stuff in the chat box.


The flipside is annoying/BM as well. You three pile a game and the other guy says "coward" before quickly returning to the lobby.

Nobody likes losing.
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Patrick
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cosmorth wrote:
tlloyd wrote:
I am completely in favor of this. I played a game once where my opponent (for now I'll avoid naming names) realized he was going to lose and began stalling in the hope that I'd just resign and he could get the win (he was ranked above me and seemed quite offended that I would beat him). He knew that waiting too long between moves would let me auto-resign him, so he was taking about a minute and a half between every single click. He dragged the game on for an extra thirty minutes this way, the whole time spouting off pretty offensive stuff in the chat box.


The flipside is annoying/BM as well. You three pile a game and the other guy says "coward" before quickly returning to the lobby.

Nobody likes losing.

Nobody LIKES losing but most of us accept it as part of playing a game. It's called not being a sore loser. There is no excuse for such behavior.
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Tyler Lloyd
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cosmorth wrote:
The flipside is annoying/BM as well. You three pile a game and the other guy says "coward" before quickly returning to the lobby.

Nobody likes losing.


I agree with you on this one. That's just a sore loser with bad manners - and he owes you an apology. Maybe he meant "coward ", which would have been slightly less rude if equally lame. Anyway, at least his childish behavior didn't waste much of your time.
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Dave Daley
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corkysru wrote:
IMO the designer should find a way to break all the point counting extensions.
If you can't do it in your head you shouldn't do it at all.
It isn't like you have a piece of paper in a game of Dominion in real life is it?


I think it would be easiest for him to obsolete these counters by adding his own counters. That way it would be a PUBLIC option. If you don't want counters, you check a box. That way people who want to cheat can do so, and the rest of us can choose not to.

I find it disheartening that people would even want to win like this. I don't have a psychology background, but there must be some reason that people can be so diametrically opposed to my way of thinking. I just love to play. If I win fine. These people don't even care about the game - just the winning. The approaches are so different, that it's unfortunate that I have to meet them in an online game that I enjoy, because while I enjoy playing, I don't enjoy playing with cheats enabled
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David desJardins
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elkabong wrote:
I find it disheartening that people would even want to win like this. I don't have a psychology background, but there must be some reason that people can be so diametrically opposed to my way of thinking. I just love to play. If I win fine. These people don't even care about the game - just the winning.


Perhaps it's your lack of psychology background that has led you astray, because your idea is totally wrong. The people who prefer to play the game while knowing the score don't care any more or less about winning than the people who prefer the score to be "secret". They are playing for the "love to play" reason, just like you. They just enjoy the play experience more when they have more information and can make interesting decisions based on that information. You don't have to feel the same way, but it does no good to view your fellow human beings as some sort of malevolent beasts.
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Paul W
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Setting aside any moral opinions about point counting mods, I think that implementing them on isotropic and allowing it as a game option would be an excellent idea: both groups of players should be happier for it, knowing the expectations before they join a game.
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Rob Neuhaus
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elkabong wrote:
I think it would be easiest for him to obsolete these counters by adding his own counters. That way it would be a PUBLIC option. If you don't want counters, you check a box. That way people who want to cheat can do so, and the rest of us can choose not to.

I find it disheartening that people would even want to win like this. I don't have a psychology background, but there must be some reason that people can be so diametrically opposed to my way of thinking. I just love to play. If I win fine. These people don't even care about the game - just the winning. The approaches are so different, that it's unfortunate that I have to meet them in an online game that I enjoy, because while I enjoy playing, I don't enjoy playing with cheats enabled


I am fine with a public option, but I think the current point counter implementation comes close. It's not about gaining an asymmetric advantage, it's about removing the advantage in tedious, burdensome, and fundamentally uninteresting point counting.



Personally, I'd much rather lose a game because my opponent fundamentally outplayed me than to win by a large margin because my opponent was poor.

But winning or losing a game because my opponent or I forgot about a duchy buy? I mean, that's just lame.

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Paul W
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rrenaud wrote:
But winning or losing a game because my opponent or I forgot about a duchy buy? I mean, that's just lame.


Which is, of course, entirely subjective. I prefer to play games more by intuition myself, and spelling out the right buy instead having players rely on their own feel for the relative position of the players is less enjoyable for me.

You don't have to agree with me, but plenty of people share each point of view, and I think it would be to everyone's benefit to make those expectations clear at the time of invitation rather than after someone is locked into a game.
 
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Rob Neuhaus
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Yeah, I agree with the 'mark players using point counters' idea. The extension had some poor initial implementation of it, but it ignored and overwrite any status you'd initially set before joining the lobby. I'll try to convince drheld to include some short prefix that marks auto point counting players.
 
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Michael Link
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DaviddesJ wrote:
The people who prefer to play the game while knowing the score don't care any more or less about winning than the people who prefer the score to be "secret". They are playing for the "love to play" reason, just like you. They just enjoy the play experience more when they have more information and can make interesting decisions based on that information.


Except that there was never an intent for players to have a running score available. I feel bad enough scrolling back through the log to see how many provinces I have, etc. since I don't have this info available in F2F game. Although I guess this is why point tracker is useful to prevent game slowing caused by people going back and then manually calculating the score...

So I guess it's a necessary evil on an online interface. But I still feel that having such information readily available violates a fundamental tension in Dominion, that being the endgame acquisition of VP. IMO, you should have to be able to "count" how many VP both you and the opponent(s) has/have in order to properly play the endgame. If I lose because I forgot you were one duchy ahead of me, that's my own damn fault and an important part of the game.
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David desJardins
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theright555J wrote:
Except that there was never an intent for players to have a running score available.


Think of publicly tracked scores as a game variant, if you like. The reason variants exist is that some people prefer the standard rules and some people prefer the variant.

Quote:
So I guess it's a necessary evil on an online interface. But I still feel that having such information readily available violates a fundamental tension in Dominion, that being the endgame acquisition of VP. IMO, you should have to be able to "count" how many VP both you and the opponent(s) has/have in order to properly play the endgame. If I lose because I forgot you were one duchy ahead of me, that's my own damn fault and an important part of the game.


Well, it seems that you recognize that this is your opinion. Someone else can have an entirely different opinion, e.g., that memorization is not very interesting and so it is good to eliminate that aspect of the game to the extent possible. Their opinion is just as valid as yours....
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Dave G
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theright555J wrote:


So I guess it's a necessary evil on an online interface. But I still feel that having such information readily available violates a fundamental tension in Dominion, that being the endgame acquisition of VP. IMO, you should have to be able to "count" how many VP both you and the opponent(s) has/have in order to properly play the endgame. If I lose because I forgot you were one duchy ahead of me, that's my own damn fault and an important part of the game.


Many of us agree with you, but the fact is it's not prohibited in the rules, and therefore simply a matter of opinion and not cheating. I have just chosen not to play on isotropic until at the very least there is some kind of flag to show when players are using a counter. While I don't think it's cheating to use one, I think that if someone feels it necessary to hide the fact they're doing so it smacks of dishonesty. Call me naive, but I was shocked the first time I realized someone had beaten me badly with a "set-up" kingdom selection. I only realized it because he challenged me again a few hours later, and the exact same set of cards came up. When people care enough about their rankings to try to game the system, I'm out. I was only interested in the rankings so far as they appeared to reflect some skill at the game, not skill in programming or willingness to take advantage of the system.
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Rob Neuhaus
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Assuming people who would have held up the game counting points near the end are using the publicly released point counter, the situation has gotten better for you rather than worse. The counter always announces itself at game start. I agree it would be better if it marked players beforehand.
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Sketchy 1
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djgutierrez77 wrote:
I have just chosen not to play on isotropic until at the very least there is some kind of flag to show when players are using a counter. While I don't think it's cheating to use one, I think that if someone feels it necessary to hide the fact they're doing so it smacks of dishonesty.


If there is a flag showing that someone is using a counter, it will only be out of courtesy. It would be trivial to make a secret counter that cannot be detected. It's the nature of a client/server game that the client can do whatever it wants with the information it's fed, and the other players will have no idea about it.

 
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