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Subject: Dol Guldur Beastmaster question rss

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Tony Fanchi
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The Enemy card Dol Guldur Beastmaster's text reads: "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional card." The phrase "After DGB attacks" is the part confusing me. Is this shadow card used for this attack, or does it stick around and get used on the next turn? Or does it get dealt and revealed after the damage from the attack is applied? I played it as if it meant that the DGB gets two shadow cards for every attack, but I'm not convinced that's the correct way to play it.
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Steve Zamborsky
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DGB attacks and gets 2 Shadow cards to be used for this turn instead of one. If it's still around next turn and engaged with a player, attacking, it will get another 2 Shadow cards, and so on.
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Tony Fanchi
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Thanks for the reply! Good to know I played it correctly. I just thought the text could have been phrased a bit more clearly.
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James Goodfriend

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(Note: the actual text is "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional shadow card."

I agree the intent of this card is that it gets to use 2 shadow cards/round, but the way it's written, I think this card actually does nothing, because it only gets its second card after it's done attacking (it will then lose the card at the end of the combat phase).

Consider two other cards

Marsh Adder
"Forced: Each time Marsh Adder attacks you, raise your threat by 1."

Dol Guldur Beastmaster almost certainly should have been templated like this. In other words "Forced: Each time Dol Goldur Beastmaster attacks, (etc)"


Chieftan Ufthak
(note: the actual card is spelled wrong, this isn't me)
"Chieftan Ufthak gets +2 Attack for each resource token on him.
Forced: After Chieftan Ufthak attacks, place 1 resource token on him."

If we interpret this the same as DGB, this would mean Chieftan Ufthak gets his +2 attack the first time around, which I don't think is correct.

I'm going to keep playing DGB as if it were written like Marsh Adder, and keep playing Chieftan Ufthak to only get its +2 Attack the second time around.

Thoughts?
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Tristan Hall
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BuddhaBob74 wrote:
Thoughts?


Makes sense.
 
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Steve Zamborsky
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BuddhaBob74 wrote:
(Note: the actual text is "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional shadow card."

I agree the intent of this card is that it gets to use 2 shadow cards/round, but the way it's written, I think this card actually does nothing, because it only gets its second card after it's done attacking (it will then lose the card at the end of the combat phase).


Under Phase 6: Combat on page 18:

"In the combat phase, enemies attack first. All enemies that are engaged with the players attack each round, and the players resolve those attacks one at a time.
At the beginning of the combat phase, the players deal 1 shadow card to each engaged enemy. Deal the top card of the encounter deck, face down, to each engaged enemy."

Not sure where the problem lies. DGB is engaged with an enemy, so he attacks. Since he attacks, his Forced: text triggers and he gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

I think you might be confusing when an enemy attacks (at the start of the Combat Phase) with Resolving Enemy Attacks (which happen after Shadow cards are dealt).
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Lee Fisher
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Zambo wrote:
BuddhaBob74 wrote:
(Note: the actual text is "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional shadow card."

I agree the intent of this card is that it gets to use 2 shadow cards/round, but the way it's written, I think this card actually does nothing, because it only gets its second card after it's done attacking (it will then lose the card at the end of the combat phase).


Under Phase 6: Combat on page 18:

"In the combat phase, enemies attack first. All enemies that are engaged with the players attack each round, and the players resolve those attacks one at a time.
At the beginning of the combat phase, the players deal 1 shadow card to each engaged enemy. Deal the top card of the encounter deck, face down, to each engaged enemy."

Not sure where the problem lies. DGB is engaged with an enemy, so he attacks. Since he attacks, his Forced: text triggers and he gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

I think you might be confusing when an enemy attacks (at the start of the Combat Phase) with Resolving Enemy Attacks (which happen after Shadow cards are dealt).


But why does it say to deal additional card AFTER he attacks? That is what seems to be confusing?
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James Goodfriend

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So you're saying the time period described as "After DGB attacks" is before that attack is resolved? And you can't see why that's confusing? In my world "after" and "before" mean very different things.

It sure seems like "When DGB attacks" does what the developers wanted in a much clearer fashion.

The way I read the rules and particularly looking at Pg 32...we enter Combat phase. I deal a Shadow card to DGB. I resolve DBG's attack. The Response triggers, and DGB gets a (worthless) second Shadow card. I think we all agree that's not intent of the card, but I think it's worded badly, at best. If "after the attack" really means "before the attack resolves", why also have a template that says "When ~ attacks"? To me the very presence of that template reassures to me that "after" really actually does mean "after".

...so I guess you're saying that you believe Chieftan Ufthak hits for 5 in the first round, and 7/9 in subsequent rounds. (Because it gets its token "After" the attack, which happens before the attack actually does anything). So...this dude hits much harder than anything else in the game, even the Nazgul. I don't buy it.

I hope we get official clarification.
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Steve Zamborsky
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lfisher wrote:

But why does it say to deal additional card AFTER he attacks? That is what seems to be confusing?


Because an enemy attacking you is not the same as resolving an enemy attack. People are reading the text on the card as the latter, when it's actually the former. Example:

1. "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional Shadow card."

2. "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster's attack is resolved, deal it 1 additional Shadow card."

In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

In #2, nothing happens. Why? Because you've already resolved DGB's attack, so the additional Shadow card does nothing to change the resolution of the attack.
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Lee Fisher
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Zambo wrote:
lfisher wrote:

But why does it say to deal additional card AFTER he attacks? That is what seems to be confusing?


Because an enemy attacking you is not the same as resolving an enemy attack. People are reading the text on the card as the latter, when it's actually the former. Example:

1. "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks, deal it 1 additional Shadow card."

2. "Forced: After Dol Guldur Beastmaster's attack is resolved, deal it 1 additional Shadow card."

In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

In #2, nothing happens. Why? Because you've already resolved DGB's attack, so the additional Shadow card does nothing to change the resolution of the attack.


Thanks Steve. It is starting to make sense. So the act of attacking IS more or less dealing the shadow cards.
Then players have to resolve the attacks as they choose.
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James Goodfriend

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I understand your point of view and disagree. I think the card is just supposed to say "When" (like the Adder) instead of "After" (like the Chieftan), that these two things mean different things, and that they just messed it up.
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Caleb
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BuddhaBob74 wrote:
I understand your point of view and disagree. I think the card is just supposed to say "When" (like the Adder) instead of "After" (like the Chieftan), that these two things mean different things, and that they just messed it up.


I concur. There is a distinction between engaging and attacking. In fact, there is no "attack" phase in the game! See Page 18 of the rules under 'Phase 6: Combat':

Quote:
In the combat phase, enemies attack first. All enemies
that are engaged with the players attack each round,
and the players resolve those attacks one at a time.


Right after this it gives the 4 steps to resolving an attack by the enemy which includes the following:

Quote:
3. Resolve shadow effect. The active player flips that
enemy’s shadow card faceup and resolves any shadow
effect that card might have.


See also the note on Page 16 regarding the engagement phase:

Quote:
Note that during this phase enemies do not attack
players
, they merely engage players. Enemies attack
the players with whom they are engaged during the
combat phase (see page 18).
(emphasis added)

Enemies will 'engage' you and then you 'resolve attacks'. The only rational interpretation of 'after...attacks' is 'after you resolve the attack' But this is obviously not what the card actually means, because adding another shadow card after the attack is resolved is pointless, except for deck cycling I guess. Therefore, this is a misprint that should be cleared up in future printings.
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Tony Fanchi
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Zambo wrote:
In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

Steve, does this mean then that Chief Ufthak gets the resource token before his first attack resolves?
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James Goodfriend

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Yay, someone agrees with me! I feel validated! *hugs self*

Plus in addition to the points above, I would add "also otherwise Chieftan Whats-His-Name would be crazy hard"
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Steve Zamborsky
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AdmiralACF wrote:
Zambo wrote:
In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

Steve, does this mean then that Chief Ufthak gets the resource token before his first attack resolves?


That's correct. The templating is the same for Chief Ufthak, so you would add the resource token at the beginning of the Combat Phase if engaged with a player (since it is attacking).
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Tony Fanchi
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Ouch! Even more reason to stay away from the big Chief!
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Box of Delights
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Zambo wrote:
AdmiralACF wrote:
Zambo wrote:
In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

Steve, does this mean then that Chief Ufthak gets the resource token before his first attack resolves?


That's correct. The templating is the same for Chief Ufthak, so you would add the resource token at the beginning of the Combat Phase if engaged with a player (since it is attacking).


thanks for clarifying.... but now is this consistent with wargs "Forced: If Wargs is dealt a shadow card with no effect, return Wargs to the staging area after it attacks" . I think most people are interpreting this "after it attacks " as "after the attack resolves".... but if we are consistent with DGB and Chief Ufthak then as soon as we see a shadow card with no effect on Wargs, we are forced to return it to the staging area before the attack resolves... I thought I had these down, but now feeling confused again !

Hope you can help Steve ...

?
 
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James Ludlow
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It's screwed up wording for sure. The wargs still finish their attack before they head back to the staging area.

In the case of Wargs you reveal the shadow card immediately prior to resolving combat, so there's nothing else that they could mean by that wording.

It seems extremely likely that we'll have this sorted out with the FAQ, and then it will no longer be an issue.
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John Conner
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Zambo wrote:
AdmiralACF wrote:
Zambo wrote:
In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

Steve, does this mean then that Chief Ufthak gets the resource token before his first attack resolves?


That's correct. The templating is the same for Chief Ufthak, so you would add the resource token at the beginning of the Combat Phase if engaged with a player (since it is attacking).

I have to wonder if the designer really intended for the Chieftan to get the attack bonus the first time he attacks. He's already a base 3 attack giving him 5 attack the first time if you add the token first. So the second round against him you're looking at a 7 attack, which is more than the hill troll. He seems awfully brutal if you can't dispose of him in one round.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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SystemIsDown wrote:
Zambo wrote:
AdmiralACF wrote:
Zambo wrote:
In #1, something happens. Why? Because this Forced: trigger happens at the beginning of the Combat Phase - all engaged enemies attack at this time, so DGB gets dealt an additional Shadow card.

Steve, does this mean then that Chief Ufthak gets the resource token before his first attack resolves?


That's correct. The templating is the same for Chief Ufthak, so you would add the resource token at the beginning of the Combat Phase if engaged with a player (since it is attacking).

I have to wonder if the designer really intended for the Chieftan to get the attack bonus the first time he attacks. He's already a base 3 attack giving him 5 attack the first time if you add the token first. So the second round against him you're looking at a 7 attack, which is more than the hill troll. He seems awfully brutal if you can't dispose of him in one round.
Hill Trolls, while strong, are slow and dumb. The Chieftan is fast, smart, well-trained and is essentially two units (hello, wolfie). *shrug*

My issue is that 4 victory seems a bit low for taking this guy down.
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Alex Martinez
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I always assumed he gets a card AFTER he attacks is meant to mean that you deal shadow cards to all the engaged enemies (in order of threat), and then, when he attacks, he gets another one. And maybe it's AFTER too because he gets the card after you've assigned defenders, so there's a wild card you might not see coming.

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James Ludlow
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KingCroc wrote:
I always assumed he gets a card AFTER he attacks is meant to mean that you deal shadow cards to all the engaged enemies (in order of threat), and then, when he attacks, he gets another one. And maybe it's AFTER too because he gets the card after you've assigned defenders, so there's a wild card you might not see coming.


That would not matter, since shadow cards remain face down until after you declare defenders anyway.
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Björn Jansson
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This is what the FAQ says:
Quote:
Should read: "Forced: When Dol Guldur Beastmaster attacks..."
The additional shadow card is dealt when the Dol Guldur Beastmaster is chosen during step 1 of enemy attack resolution
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Mihael Reider
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Also, for those who didn't see it in the FAQ:
Quote:
Q: When do "after this enemy attacks" Forced effects
like those on Chieftan Ufthak (CORE 90) and Wargs
(CORE 85) resolve?
A: These effects resolve immediately after step 4 of
enemy attack resolution.

That is, Ufthak attacks at 3 Attack Strength the first time.
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Gary Price
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Ok so I have just taken a look at the latest FAQ and want to know if I am right in saying simply put the DGB gets dealt a shadow card face down at the start of the combat phase then once it is declared as an attacker a second shadow card is dealt face down and after defenders are declared both shadow effects (if any) are resolved.

Simply put this beast gets 2 chances of causing grief each time it attacks.

Is this correct?

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