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The one big difference between collectible games and traditional games is that much of the strategizing for collectible games occur during the deckbuilding phase before the game is even played. That gives regular games an advantage when one just wants to play without doing all the deck building. Draft, for CCGs that don't use factions, is an option, but can sometimes lose some of the game's flavor. CCGs with preconstructed decks are sometimes balanced, but often not.
I'm wondering if players have developed decks that are reasonably balanced against one another mostly using common cards. Commons make it easier for others to build the same decks without having to buy rare cards to match them or proxy them (I don't use sleeves).
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Eric Jome
United States
Milwaukee
Wisconsin
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I can make decks for lots of different games. If you have a particular game, perhaps I can help you. The theory of one game often doesn't apply very well to the theory of another game, unfortunately.
Generally, I think, you need to approach collectible games in exactly the same fashion as strategy games. Ask yourself what is needed to win. Consider how a strategy will contribute to that win. Build your deck to make the strategy redundant and consistent.
For example, the most basic form of Magic deck - often seen even in competitive drafting - is based on a simple, reliable strategy. Magic requires you to reduce an opponent from 20 points to 0 points. The most reliable, cost effective tool for doing that is a creature. The problem with creatures is that other creatures can block them. So, if you opt for creatures that cannot easily be blocked and choose lots of them for your deck, particularly those whose ratio of attack power to cost is as good as it can be ... well, you'll win. Creatures with evasion with cards to eliminate their opposites and prevent major changes to the game state is often a reliable strategy going right to the core of the game.
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I'm not going to ask you for deck designs yet. I very much appreciate the offer.
The intent of my question was to get behind the fundamentals of game design to a degree. The big difference I see between traditional boardgames and customizable games is that well-designed boardgames have balanced sides that can be played. Somebody can play any starting positions and have a reasonably good chance of winning (not counting historical games that may realistically be limited by the needs for some historical accuracy). Customizable games can be wildly unbalanced at the beginning based on how well each deck is designed.
I'm doing all the CCG buying for my gaming group because they're not all that interested in them. That leaves out constructed play because the rest of the players aren't going to take the time to build decks.
There's only two ways of introducing the games to the group.
One would be random drafting.
The other would be by bringing in constructed decks. The problem with this approach is one of play balancing. That's where a well designed LCG can be better than a CCG. The company designing the LCG can put a lot of hours in designing core decks that are fairly well-balanced. With CCGs, that's usually up to players to figure out.
I was wondering if CCG players have tried to build balanced decks that have fairly even chances of winning no matter which deck is played.
Playing random decks have a different feel than playing with tuned decks.
I'm essentially trying to play a customizable game like a traditional balanced game. In some gaming groups, that's the best way to get them interested in the game. There are a lot of gaming groups that simply will not touch Magic because of bad past overspending/playing experiences.
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Ted Spencer
United States
Lake in the Hills
Illinois
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Back when I was playing Magic, we played exclusively pauper decks. That's a deck made of only commons. Building decks of only commons eliminates, obviously, uncommon and rare combos.
So there's more game to a pauper deck, IMO. No more stacking the deck with lottery tickets, waiting for that insane combo.
All-commons decks can be made with any CCG.
Don't know if that addresses your question.
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It's more a matter of finding out if anybody has playtested common decks to the point where they have a fairly even chance of winning.
The expectation, when buying any game, is that it has been playtested to be a fair game amongst all players. Nobody wants to play an unbalanced game where one side always loses. Gamers shouldn't have to customize a game they bought simply to be able to fully play it. That's the job of the company that created the game.
CCGs are different because they're designed to be customized. Game balance is much looser because if shifts based on the expectation of the cards that each player has to draw upon for their decks. Between beginning players, CCGs are fairly balanced because players roughly have the same amount of bought product. The same exists at the tournament level where players have spent considerably more money--but have roughly spent about the same amount to build powerful decks. In between those extremes, CCGs are less balanced.
When introducing CCGs to a gaming group that isn't into them, things get a bit tricky. If I bring starters that are partly randomized, the game doesn't play the way it should because a lot of the cards don't support the rest of the deck. I can preconstruct decks, but one may consistently win over the other and somewhat blunt the fun from playing the first time.
Based on the lack of responses, it appears that few gamers have tried to build balanced decks.
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Ed G.
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
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You didn't say which CCG you are inerested in introducng to your group,so I don't know if this recommondation will be appropriate, but Wizards produces ready-made decks for Magic. I don't know firsthand if they are balanced, but since (at least last year, for whichever edition of the game was current) they sold packs of two decks which were themed as adversaries in the game universe, I assume they are. These would probably help you avoid the balance issues you site and also allow you to learn about the game as you compare the partner decks and deconstruct them. Good luck!
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United States
Danbury
Connecticut
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Maybe you should consider dueling-style card games that are NOT collectible but allow some customization if players want. For example, Blue Moon and the Scarab/Minotaur Lords games. You can play balanced factions straight out of the box, but if you WANT to tinker, you can. The Lords series even has rules for deck tweaking in between rounds, which is kind of cool.
It just seems like you may be trying to fit a square peg in a round hole when you say that your group are not interested in collectible games, yet you're trying to get some, build balanced decks, and get them to play. Maybe just try something that's already balanced & complete.
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Ted Spencer
United States
Lake in the Hills
Illinois
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rgagnon wrote: It's more a matter of finding out if anybody has playtested common decks to the point where they have a fairly even chance of winning.
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Based on the lack of responses, it appears that few gamers have tried to build balanced decks. LOL! I built my decks to anticipate my opponent. Balancing the two was the last thing on my mind.
Seems LCG base decks may be what you're looking for. Some lucky people get paid to balance decks.
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Brandon Long
United States
East Lansing
Michigan
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While I have no experience with it, the Yomi decks are supposed to be very well balanced.
As to trying to get two decks with great balance, my advice is don't.
Just try to play two games. I did that quite a bit in my Magic days. Play the game with a person, then switch decks. Perfect balance isn't necessary, and it can also be a lot of fun to know both your deck and your opponents deck.
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Andy Stout
United States
La Jolla
CA
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For Magic:
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/dai...
http://69.8.198.251/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/...
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/dai...
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/...
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/...
I hope over 60 decks buildable from commons that are EXTREMELY easily built from playsets of commons buyable on eBay for $10 each (so less than a dollar per deck) works for you :-)
Personally I think the oldest two articles (the last two I listed above) have the most fun decks.
Seriously, the above is I think literally the best deal in gaming.
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