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Subject: Olympia (B) stage 3 copying Courtesan's Guild? rss

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Brett de Jesus
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Stage 3 of Olympia (B) lets you copy a neighboring Guild card. In the italics below it in the rulebook, it says you choose at the end of the game. If you copy the Courtesan's Guild at the end, you are either gaining the benefit of a leader you already own (possibly doubling it) or gaining the benefit of a leader 2 people away.

Having the courtesan token on one of your leaders could be very useful.
For instance, Pythagoras for a 6th, and courtesan for a 7th gear symbol.
Or live the dream and have the courtesan on Plato and have 2 sets of 7.

Is this right? There are 20 leaders with end of game relevance, so it's likely to pop up.
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Jeff Thornsen
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I think you're confused how this Wonder ability works.

If you copy the Courtesan's Guild, then you have to choose one of your own neighbors' Leaders to copy. You don't just copy the benefit your neighbor got from the guild.

It's the same with all other guilds (e.g., just because the Strategist's Guild was worth 12 points to your neighbor, doesn't mean that you copy the 12 points... you copy the Strategist's Guild power and then re-evaluate it from your City's position)
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Adam Smiles
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No, it sounds like he got it right.

7 Wonders Rulebook wrote:
• the third stage allows the player to copy a Guild (purple card) of their choice built by one of their two neighboring cities.

Clarifications :
- for the third stage, the choice of the Guild is made at the end of the game, when counting points. The player totals the victory points as if they had built that Guild.


When the courtesan's guild is built, the player that built it places the courtesan marker on a neighboring leader. From that point on, you get that leader's power (either in-game effects or end-game scoring).

So the player building the wonder, could copy the courtesan guild's scoring ability. The value of the guild to you, is in fact the same as the value to the owner, because it is worth the value of the leader that has the courtesan marker on it.

The courtesan marker could be placed on one of your leaders (allowing you to score that leader twice), or on the leader of your neighbor's neighbor.
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Brett de Jesus
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The way I'm reading Courtesan's guild is this (as printed in the rules):

When the Courtesan's Guild is built, the player must immediately place the "Courtesan" Token on one of the Leaders present in one neighboring city. The player then gains the benefits of that Leader and his or her associated effect.

I'm never building the guild, thus I never make any decisions where the token goes. (Also the game only includes one token). I'm only copying the guild, which gives a benefit from a leader who has the token on it.

If the token didn't exist, I might be inclined to agree with you.

(I'm quoting the rules pdf I found in the forums)


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Jeff Thornsen
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Well, then I guess I have to agree with you.

It would make more sense (to me) if the game came with a 2nd Courtesan Token for the Olympia(B) player to use.
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Steve Duff
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No, Jeff was right the first time. You copy the Guild. Literally, look at the empty table in front of you, and say "see that blank spot? That's the Courtesan Guild."

So, at the end of the game, there's a (very hard to see) Courtesan Guild in your build area. Do what it says. And that's "Gain the benefit of a Leader that one of your neighbours has built". So, look to your left or right, pick a Leader they have, and pretend it's in your area, and adjust points or whatever.

There's no second token needed because this is all done at the end of the game, as Adam's rule quote shows. There is only one player who needs a physical token placed, because only one player can gain the benefit of a "Courtesan'd" Leader while rounds are progressing.

You can never double one of your own leaders or use a leader two players away with this.
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Adam Smiles
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

So, at the end of the game, there's a (very hard to see) Courtesan Guild in your build area. Do what it says. And that's "Gain the benefit of a Leader that one of your neighbours has built". So, look to your left or right, pick a Leader they have, and pretend it's in your area, and adjust points or whatever.


That is not what the Courtesan Guild says. There are 2 parts to the Guild. The first says upon building the guild, place the courtesan token on a neighbor's leader. The second part says for the remainder of the game, copy the ability of the leader with the token as if it was your own.

The wonder also has a timing issue, in that you wait until the end of the game and then choose a guild to copy. Since you didn't build the guild you skip the part about placing the token. Now you simply copy the power of the leader with the token on it.
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Cameron Chien
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You guys are making it more complicated than it needs to be.

The Olympian side B has always let you copy a neighboring guild as if you played the card into your own play area. So, for example, if your neighbor has the "get one victory point for every red military card played by your neighbors" guild, and you copy it, then you only get points for YOUR neighbors' military cards, not the neighbors of the controller of the original guild card.

Same with the courtesan guild. The Olympian player would choose a leader from one of HIS neighbors to copy at the end of the game.

The reason there isn't a second courtesan token is because the Olympian player gets to pick his target at the end of the game, not at the time he builds that stage of his wonder.

Cameron
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Steve Duff
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asmiles wrote:
That is not what the Courtesan Guild says.


It's exactly what the Guild says. "Leader <- / ->" means copy a leader on your left or right.

Quote:
The wonder also has a timing issue, in that you wait until the end of the game and then choose a guild to copy. Since you didn't build the guild you skip the part about placing the token.


Precisely.

Quote:
Now you simply copy the power of the leader with the token on it.


No, you do what the card says, and choose a Leader to your left or right. All copied elements in the game are done exactly the same way - perform the card as if were sitting in your play area. That's what a copy means, it's as if there were a second card that existed. If a player can't visualize it without the card, then wait until your neighbour has scored the card, and borrow the card, putting it in your area. Calculate your score with the card, then give him the card back.

The token's sole purpose is to mark the player's choice who built the card, not yours. They use a token because they will have multiple times when the leader could be used, and it's important to make sure they always use the same one. You only get one use, so there's no potential confusion, thus no second token.

Why would you think their choice affects your choice? When you copy the Science Guild, do you think that just because player X chose the Cog, you have to choose the same symbol as well?
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Ryan M
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My understanding is that you copy the effect of the card as if you, yourself, have played it. You don't copy the neighbours results when THEY played it. You copy the cards ability, not the neighbours result..

So if you chose the Courtesan to copy, you get to pick your own target as if YOU played the card yourself.
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Paul W
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There's certainly a reasonable argument to be made either way. Seems like exactly the sort of thing to email the publisher for clarification on.
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Cameron Chien
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Game rules generally tend to go on precedent, unless otherwise stated, and the precedent in this case is that set by previous "copy your neighbor" powers and cards.

Cameron
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Derek Thompson
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This is a stupid situation and someone from Repos or Bauza himself needs to step in and decide, because it's driving me nuts. Furthermore, if you decide at the end, does that mean you can't benefit in-game from a Leader, for example, if the Courtesan Guild was built to take advantage of Bilkis, then the Olympia player can't build the wonder in-game and start using Bilkis? (That's assuming he would have to use the same Leader, of course)... ...
 
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Steve Duff
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Don't know why it's driving you nuts, just do exactly what the rules state. No, you can't use Olympia to benefit mid-game by copying a guild, because you don't get to copy a guild until the end of the game.

rules pg 9 wrote:
for the third stage, the choice of the Guild is made at the end of the game, when counting points.
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Cameron Chien
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What Steve said...it seems obvious for me.

Cameron
 
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Greg Todd
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I also think that there's only one way to do this. The Zeus player waits until final scoring, builds a virtual courtesan's guild and places a virtual courtesan token and scores accordingly.
The Zeus player acts as if he built the guild himself, and building the guild involves placing the token.
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Adam A
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Going to chime in as devil's advocate as uncertainty in this costs games - I've been there.

Most of you are saying that you copy one of your neighbour's leaders as though you played the guild yourself and citing the rules as evidence.

I am in agreement that the intent of the card would indicate that you build a virtual guild, and get a virtual token. The rules do make it clear that you would not get any non-scoring benefits of the leader. But the rules as they are printed are in stark contrast to the virtual token idea for a couple reasons.

1. You do not get a virtual guild. The rules state that, at the end of the you choose a guild to copy the scoring aspect of. No other parts of the guild are copied - for all intents and purposes, you do not own a guild (a neighbouring Architect's Guild would not score from you). The guild would seem to never actually be built, thus the token should probably not move, and the leader would be copied twice - once immediately for the guild's owner, and once for scoring purposes only at the game's end. but even if you do consider it built...

2. There is no virtual token. The rules state that you place the courtesan token on a leader. If it was built, the single token would, by the strict letter of the rules, necessarily be moved to a new leader just before scoring took place.

Anyway, we've taken to playing with the 'virtual-token' method, because using it in any other way is either mostly useless or malicious moreso than 7 Wonders is supposed to be. But to state that the rules support it is simply untrue, so an errata is warranted.
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Mike
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We had a game tonight that ran into this question and we had a somewhat split decision on the matter. I think the sticking point is the physicality of the Courtesan marker. It needs to be a physical presence on the board for the Courtesan guild since it could be placed on a leader that provides an in game benefit. The Olympia board guild copy would not be useful if used on a guild that does not provide an in game benefit, so physical guild copy representation is not necessary. Is the physicality of the Courtesan marker a distraction in this situation or is there trully only one Courtesan?

So what's the answer here? Come on Antoine, speak up.

As a side note, we were playing with the Manneken Pis board. So the player who was copying the Courtesan guild of the player on his right was using his Manneken Pis board to copy the third Olympia wonder of the player on his left. Playing by the 'there is only one Courtesan' ruling, the guild copy would have happened a full 3 seats away from the Olympia board.
 
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Alexey Ilyin
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We as well have confused with this question.
I've played for Olympia B and copied Courtesan's Guild (only it was accessible for me). And we have a hot discussion about possibility to use different leader's abilities.

It is clear (for me!) that I can copy and can use leader's ability if leader gives victory points (like Cleopatra) or scientific symbols (like Euclid).

But what about other leaders?
Can I use Solomon's ability and build card from discard pile - will this card counted in my total score?
Can I use Caesar's ability and get 2 shileds - will it affect my wars with neighbors?

Basically it is better to have answers on each leader with non victory point abilities.
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Steven Albano
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Well, I always saw Olympia as getting the ability of the Guild when you play it and not doing anything else when you build the guild. You don't have to pay costs; you don't put tokens anywhere.

That's how I always saw it. You get the benefits of the guild next to you because your society is powerful that any guild you chose will work for you.

So when you choose the Courtesan's Guild, they are letting you in on their "victory power" by sharing with you what they are doing. You're not building a new one, so you don't get to send out women.

Because to me, if for some reason, the player who built the Courtesan's Guild in the first place isn't able to put the token on the leader (a four player game with players ABCD, B is Courtesan and ABC don't have a leader), and you use Olympia, I can't see why you'd be able to use the guild to get a leader from D's zone.

But that's just me.
 
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Steve Duff
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colormage1 wrote:
Because to me, if for some reason, the player who built the Courtesan's Guild in the first place isn't able to put the token on the leader (a four player game with players ABCD, B is Courtesan and ABC don't have a leader), and you use Olympia, I can't see why you'd be able to use the guild to get a leader from D's zone.


It's really quite simple. B and D are your neighbours, so your copy of the guild has access to B and D.

B has A and C as neighbours, so they are denied access to D.

You have a copy of a guild. What your guild can access is always different than what your neighbours can access. It's the core foundation of the game.
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Steven Albano
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
You have a copy of a guild. What your guild can access is always different than what your neighbours can access. It's the core foundation of the game.


But I think that the difference lies in whether Olympia gives you a copy of the guild and what that actually means.

Does Courtesan's Guild put the token as part of being built or just from existing?
 
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Steve Duff
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colormage1 wrote:
But I think that the difference lies in whether Olympia gives you a copy of the guild and what that actually means.

Does Courtesan's Guild put the token as part of being built or just from existing?


We don't have to guess, it's in the rules. The player copies a guild card that one of their neighbour's possesses. A copy is a duplicate, a second item. "The player totals the victory points as if they had built that Guild."

*ALL* cards are evaluated as if they are sitting in *your* civ table space. If I copy a card that gives points based on the number of red military cards around me, I count the red cards of *my* neighbours, not the red cards of Bob's neighbours. This card works exactly the same.

As for the token, it's irrelevant as explained above in the thread. The "real" Courtesan guild builder has to place a token to keep track of the leader *they* are leeching from because they use it repeatedly throughout the entire game. They might forget, so they mark it.

We don't use or need a token, because we only use a leader once, at the end of the game. There is no tracking required.
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Steven Albano
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
The player copies a guild card that one of their neighbour's possesses. A copy is a duplicate, a second item.


But if I copy the guild that gives you points for Purple, Brown, and Grey cards, I don't include the copied guild in the total, correct? (Because it isn't an actual physical card, I'm assuming.)

I understand both sides, but it just seems more logical for you to have to get the Leader that the original Courtesan's Guild copied.

I see it in this way: Most guild point to your left, your right, and/or yourself. When you someone copies those guilds, those directions still apply.

But Courtesan's Guild points to a very specific point. That leader. And no matter who controls the Courtesan's Guild, it is still pointing to a specific point.
 
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Steve Duff
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colormage1 wrote:
I see it in this way: Most guild point to your left, your right, and/or yourself. When you someone copies those guilds, those directions still apply.

But Courtesan's Guild points to a very specific point. That leader. And no matter who controls the Courtesan's Guild, it is still pointing to a specific point.


*THEIR* guild is pointing to a specific leader.

Let's look at ours, the second copy that the rules tell us to play as if it's sitting in our own play area.



Hmm. Those same little left/right arrows, telling us to use a leader to our left or right. Which you just said we should listen to.

The token is a convenience for memory, nothing more. They probably didn't even have one in the game until some beta tester said "Hey, I forgot which leader I've been copying, maybe you should do something about that."

Look at from the opposite way - why should copying someone's guild give me access to a neighbour sitting 2 chairs away? Somebody I can never trade with or ever interact with in any way? Literally break the foundation of the game: you only ever interact with your 2 immediate neighbours?
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