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Twilight Imperium (Third Edition): Shards of the Throne» Forums » Strategy

Subject: First game with Ghost of Creuss rss

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Ryan Caputo
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Dude it’s your game, make up whatever you want. Who says you have to follow the rules.
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Scott Lewis
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ryolacap wrote:
Dude it’s your game, make up whatever you want. Who says you have to follow the rules.

Indeed, I could say the same.

The point is, the rule is ambiguous. Claiming your right and everyone else is wrong doesn't make that less true. We don't know what the intent in this case was, and until we do, both interpretations are just conjecture.
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Martin Larouche
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Whatever is said about the definition of "movement purpose" is irrelevant,

The entire tech is based on a "slingshot" around a large gravitational annomaly to go faster doing so, hence why it needs to be adjacent.

You cannot use the gravity of a wormhole THROUGH another wormhole, to go faster and into a completely different direction...
The entire tech wouldn't make any sense otherwise.
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Ryan Caputo
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I am saying the exact same thing, the intent is not what I am writing, but the rules are clearly in line with what I am saying. So it can be argued and in fact the way the rules are written my interpretation stands SOLID. Taken straight out of the rulebooks and FAQ, defined straight out of the dictionary, without having to make up or assume a single line of text.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact, whether it was the intent or not.

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Martin Larouche
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ryolacap wrote:
Movement is defind pg 14

2) MOVEMENT
The active player may now move friendly ships
between the two activated systems. As during a
Tactical Action, Fighters, PDS, and Ground Force
units must be transported by Carrier/War Sun.

the definition of purpose can be looked up.



Which clearly explains that when the system is activated, a system with a wormhole (as per the tech wording) is not adjacent to the other end of the wormhole. Only while moving the units themselves.

"Movement" is NOT the "action of moving", it's a phase during the tactical action.
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Ryan Caputo
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deedob wrote:
Whatever is said about the definition of "movement purpose" is irrelevant,

The entire tech is based on a "slingshot" around a large gravitational annomaly to go faster doing so, hence why it needs to be adjacent.

You cannot use the gravity of a wormhole THROUGH another wormhole, to go faster and into a completely different direction...
The entire tech wouldn't make any sense otherwise.


So what if you are adjacent and move directly away from the anomaly, how is that a sling shot? Theme base interpretations are great; my interpretation actually makes more sense in this case.
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Ryan Caputo
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deedob wrote:
ryolacap wrote:
Movement is defind pg 14

2) MOVEMENT
The active player may now move friendly ships
between the two activated systems. As during a
Tactical Action, Fighters, PDS, and Ground Force
units must be transported by Carrier/War Sun.

the definition of purpose can be looked up.



Which clearly explains that when the system is activated, a system with a wormhole (as per the tech wording) is not adjacent to the other end of the wormhole. Only while moving the units themselves.

"Movement" is NOT the "action of moving", it's a phase during the tactical action.


It’s actually interchangeable without changing the fact that the wormholes become adjacent if the ship goal to move
Rulebook:
‘remember that all movement is still part
of an Activation Sequence’
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Scott Lewis
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"Part of", not "equivalent to". His statement that movement is just one phase of the activation sequence is not contrary to the rule you quotes, because that phase *IS* "still part of" the sequence.
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Jeff Vawter
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Sigmazero has this one correct. Going by the rules, wormholes are only considered adjacent when moving your fleet from one system to another. At all other times its not considered adjacent.

Tactical actions consist of the following:

1.Activate System
2.Movement
3.PDS Fire
4.Space Battles
5.Landings
6.Invasion
7.Production

The bonus you get from Gravity drives is only available if you meet the requirements during section one hence if the fleet is in a system containing a wormhole and does not have a system tile with another wormhole touching it, it is NOT considered adjacent during the activate system and does not gain the Gravity drive bonus.
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Ryan Caputo
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sigmazero13 wrote:
"Part of", not "equivalent to". His statement that movement is just one phase of the activation sequence is not contrary to the rule you quotes, because that phase *IS* "still part of" the sequence.


You wanted definition of 'movement' for some silly reason, I gave you one of many in the rules, and all are based around moving units. All movement has steps starting with activating the system your are moving to; activating a system while in a wormhole system both fulfills the wormhole requirements (movement purpose) making it adjacent and gravity drive requirements (start their activation adjacent). I can't argue facts against someone who keeps pulling fantasy statements, assumptions, and interpretations of what the creator was thinking at the time, based on what I can only guess as ESP.

You are going nowhere, it changes nothing.

Have fun gaming, I am done.

Not saying it’s right, but they need to add it to the FAQ, if it is not. But beyond all that, it’s in the rules…Sorry.
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Andrew
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ryolacap wrote:
Have fun gaming, I am done.


This is probably for the best.

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Scott Lewis
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ryolacap wrote:
But beyond all that, it’s in the rules…Sorry.

Except, of course, the conclusion, which is not in the rules (as much as you want to claim it is).

Your conclusion is based on your interpretation. Valid, yes, but so is the opposing view.
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Jeff Vawter
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ryolacap wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
"Part of", not "equivalent to". His statement that movement is just one phase of the activation sequence is not contrary to the rule you quotes, because that phase *IS* "still part of" the sequence.


You wanted definition of 'movement' for some silly reason, I gave you one of many in the rules, and all are based around moving units. All movement has steps starting with activating the system your are moving to; activating a system while in a wormhole system both fulfills the wormhole requirements (movement purpose) making it adjacent and gravity drive requirements (start their activation adjacent). I can't argue facts against someone who keeps pulling fantasy statements, assumptions, and interpretations of what the creator was thinking at the time, based on what I can only guess as ESP.

You are going nowhere, it changes nothing.

Have fun gaming, I am done.

Not saying it’s right, but they need to add it to the FAQ, if it is not. But beyond all that, it’s in the rules…Sorry.


This is where your interpreting the rules wrong. Movement starts AFTER activating a system. Your combining all the steps in a tactical action into one single move, whereas its actually a series of steps. Activating a system while in a wormhole does NOT meet the movement requirements as the step has not taken place. TI3 is very specific on what takes place on each step.

Wormholes are adjacent only in step 2 movement
Gravity Drive can only be utilized in step 1 Activate system

Its the same when your moving multiple fleets into a system, you cant fire your PDS until your opponent finishes his move this prevent you from picking off their lone carrier just because they moved it first. Hence you cannot count a wormhole system adjacent until after the cc has been placed and then movement phase starts, by then its too late for Gravity drives to kick in as they are checked during the activation phase not the movement phase.


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Andrew
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you built your flagship via production secondary? That seems illegal, in order to build your flagship you have to activate your home system with a CC
 
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JH
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No, the rules say "When producing units in his Home System, a player can choose to produce his Flagship." Nothing about having to activate it.
 
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Scott Lewis
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I agree; the only restriction the rules make is that it can only be built in the home system; it doesn't say it can only be built with a Tactical or Transfer action.
 
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K K
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You could have went with Gravity Drive to gain the extra +1 movement for your flagship.
 
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Brian Petersen
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The +1 movement is only when the ship is physically adjacent to a wormhole system. The power combo is to use Production/Imperial secondary to build it while holding the Warfare I/II SC. That'll get it outside the Gate that turn and you'll benefit from Gravity Drive on the following round.
 
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Martin Larouche
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nikezz wrote:
You could have went with Gravity Drive to gain the extra +1 movement for your flagship.


You underestimate the insane amount of resource required by the Ghost very early in the game.
The Flagship requires almost your entire resources available on the second turn by itself.

Then i would've also forfeited the racial tech, that needs to be researched ASAP, as it takes a long time to put in place (2 turns minimum, 1 for each wormhole). You could argue that i could've taken the Tech strategy card to gain it free and buy Gravity Drive too...

But then the tech (II) card is usually the first one to get picked by other players AND i would've needed to spend a fortune, again, on a second tech. At some point, you need to produce some ships.

Picking Warfare II instead of Gravity Drive to go faster frees the resources for other techs and ships. Warfare II is also "usually" always available in the early game.
 
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Henry Coleman
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I played the Ghost last weekend. I had no problems interpreting the rules for the flagship as I never bought it! I never got close to having enough resources buy it or the racial techs. Two ‘spend x resources’ objectives came out so they were more important. There were enough wormholes about to use gravity drives to get anywhere I wanted anyway so I just bought that.
 
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Ottawa Ronin
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My rookie suggestions for the Ghosts.

1 - Get Gravity Drive ASAP. +1 Movement from worm-hole systems before your first movement and every turn after is obviously great.

2 - Do what you can to get Malice if you play with it. You can leave basically nothing there and its 100% defended or you can build a dock (a lame one as Malice is production 0) and launch slow Dreadnoughts from there.

3 - Dimensional Splicer (their Racial) should be taken as soon as you have the tech color related objectives done. (I've never had a game and not seen at least one of those objectives).

4 - Watch both (or all three) ends of the D Wormhole. In a weird way it's more susceptible than A or B. There is more than one "In the Silence of Space" Action Card which allows fleets to move through enemy ships and The Winnu have a similar ability with their Flagship I think. It can be used as a quick way to your Home-World or inner Empire.
 
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Brian Petersen
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1-Yes, but make sure you can get a second carrier out ASAP. No sense in giving all your ships 3 movement if you can't build them. Your starting fleet is utterly pathetic, since it's 5 ships that hit on 9s.

2-My group house-ruled control of a wormhole system to be the planet and a capital ship, so an MU and a destroyer there is sufficient. If you want to use control as having the planet, just keep an MU on Mallice and enjoy the 3 or 4 influence per round. Most of their builds should be Transfer Actions into another wormhole. A great strategy when using the SE SCs is to get your Slave Wormhole Generator on the first turn. Place one on MR. Whenever you get the Tech SC again, grab the Dimensional Splicer. Pick and damage a ship in every fight at MR. Once you have it, people will have a VERY tough time taking it without Stasis Capsules. Putting a wormhole adjacent to someone's home when they leave a system empty is a lot of fun too, especially if you get to go first and they've poorly defended it.

3-Unless it's the last couple rounds, it doesn't matter when you qualify for the tech objectives. You can generally afford to pay 6 resources minus discounts over 6+X with no discounts. The way people will get around the tech is to collude for one player to take your space with no GFs, then the other guy comes in with a carrier with GFs and a decent fleet. The other player will retreat. Dimensional Splicer is most useful in conjunction with PDS grids, since you can destroy the expensive sustain damage unit after the player takes the hit from the PDS in it.

4-The FAQ confirmed the general consensus that only the Ghosts may use their flagships wormhole. Their flagship also cannot go through it's own wormhole. For the Ghosts, A and B wormholes are insusceptible. In the Silence of Space also doesn't allow you to stop in a system that contains enemy ships, and I keep at least a destroyer in each. The Yssaril's Flagship is the one that has Lightwave Deflectors. The Ghosts have quite the advantage, since their HS is one system further than everyone elses, DSC PDS cannons can't hit it, and Dimensional Splicers really hurt the enemy invader.

I played as the Ghosts last Friday. The game ended with 4 of 6 players able to get up to 10 VPs, but Checks and Balances gave Yssaril the lowest initiative, so they "won". 3 of 4 wormholes were in play. The closest was 4 spaces from home. Noisy people pointed out that I was intending on grabbing Mallice, so all 3 wormholes were controlled by the start of Round 3. I had to buy colored techs for public objectives, my preliminary, and my secret objective, though I didn't have time to fulfill it. We played with the base game SCs, so each round I paid 8 resources for tech, and had 2-4 left over to pay for ships. At the end of the game, I was completely eliminated from space, but had 3 planets and 5 GFs outside home. I may as well have had Cultural Crisis played on me the entire game, since I was never in an a/b wormhole. The game was quite boring for me, since I took 3 systems with my starting fleet, and hardly bought any ships.

Gravity Drives is a bit greedy. All of your units except DNs and the flagship start out with 2 movement. It's not often that you need 3 movement and have no obstructions. Gravity Drives is a must have after Lightwave Deflectors, though.

Between having no wormholes in the Ghost area and having no wormholes in the galaxy, I'd pick no wormholes in the galaxy. That guarantees you get Mallice after your racial tech and you'll be able to put the other one somewhere sometime. Other players getting to Mallice first screws up your strategy, since you'll have a much harder time taking it from a combat-oriented player as opposed to no one.

If Ghosts have Quann or the planet with the alpha wormhole right in front of them, either Warfare or Tech primary lets them get the +1 movement to take Mallice immediately. In the future, Quann becomes their new HS, and their flagship becomes obsolete. After all, if you have 3 movement, you're already getting to any other a/b hole from home. In Quann, they're going to any other a/b hole and 2 spaces further than that!!!
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Leonardo Camara
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Farhad Mahmoudi
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Late to the discussion, but this should clear things up:

"Q: Does a ship in a Wormhole system or the Gravity Rift receive the +1 movement bonus from Gravity Drive?

A: A ship in a Wormhole system receives the bonus if there is another Wormhole connecting to it. A ship in a Gravity Rift does not receive the bonus unless that system is adjacent to a system containing another Gravity Rift or a Wormhole."

So as long as the wormhole has a connection on the other end (which means all alpha and beta wormholes if playing with the Nexus), the Gravity Drive gives a +1 movement bonus.

Personally, both myself and my gaming group found this to be the most intuitive and straightforward interpretation of the rules, but we looked it up anyhow. It's in the FAQ 2.3, page 15 (under "Technology Cards"). Frankly I think the counterargument in this thread is vastly over-thinking the language of the rules, but obviously things are different on a case-by-case basis.

Regardless, the Gravity Drive is a very powerful technology, and is probably a must-have when it comes to the Ghosts. One particular strategy that I enjoy employing is placing a wormhole immediately adjacent to my home system and researching the Gravity Drive as soon as possible. The additional mobility is quite nice.
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Alwin Derijck
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So for clarity sake, how do the Creuss Flag Ship (Hil Colish) and the Gravity Drive technology interact?

To me, the only logical way of playing, that is in line with FAQ ruling 2.3, is that Hil Colish is considered to be adjacent to the home system D wormhole (WH) and therefore gets +1 movement all the time, according to FAQ.

Given the amount of confusion there has been about this tech and race I am curious how it is supposed to be played.

The flagship is an expensive slug that should be able to use its D wormhole power in combination with the gravity drive IMHO.

Looking forward to your replies.

cheers,
Alwin
 
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